Author Topic: Questionnaire discussion  (Read 5289 times)

Iain Keers

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Re: Questionnaire discussion
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2013, 09:38:38 pm »
>Community goes to shit

Implying it hasn't already gone to shit? I mean look at it now compared to 2 years ago. Ingame is as vibrant as ever, this place is a fetid backwater.
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar

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Re: Questionnaire discussion
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2013, 10:11:22 pm »
Dear Mr. Keers,

but it hasn't. If what Mr. Kerr suggested was enacted then (from what activity there is) the forum would very likely turn into both:

a) a dumping ground for memes and shit that people find elsewhere on the internet (reddit etc.) with very little proper communication and an engaging forum experience, and
b) a place festered with baiting, trolling and flame wars where either the moderation altogether ignores it or even is involved (in some circumstances like where it's nearly all vs. one for whatever reason).

These contribute to the forum being even less active as people seek communication through different, more convenient and better means so essentially all that's left is something that actually resembles a fetid backwater. I've noticed you use a lot of hyperbole in your assessment of the forums, particularly in relation to the moderation and its effect. Personally I find almost all of what you (and what a few others) suggest on this matter to be largely inaccurate.

The non-basic (ie website-related) rules of course exist as something that can be adjusted, and the moderators are in almost constant communication so that punishments and enforcements can be changed in terms of what is and isn't accepted - there is a balance that exists, and although obviously it is predominantly around what a narrower amount of individuals say (you usually address this group as "Frerk" but all the admins) the moderation essentially does work.

There is nothing I can see (or have seen in the past, for that matter) that would suggest the moderation and the rules have impacted in any significant way on the amount of new registers and retention of people. Furthermore, this idea that the moderation is faulty and is counter-productive and the conclusion that it's the reason that the forum is more inactive than in the past isn't particularly explored. I've come to notice that it's consistently championed by people who hold banners - for all sorts of reasons - that things should be done differently and even people who hold grudges for whatever reason. That's fine and it doesn't really bother me that much, and this obviously isn't explicitly directed at you, but I would strongly suggest that you and others explore the past of the forum more and think a lot more deeply as to the causes of inactivity on the forum.

I may well be wrong, although I doubt that I am, but I think that simply asserting that inactivity is due to faulty moderation or something along the lines of "there's something wrong with how the forums work because the game is more active" without also thinking as much of other factors and accepting potential fallibility of this assessment is a very stubborn and actually not particularly constructive way of going about helping the situation.

This is, despite what some people might assert, not some unshakeable regime where things are never changed and input is never used or valued. It is obviously not in any of our interests, as a moderating team, if communication is stifled and people leave or choose not to stay and use the forums regularly. Whatever your opinion on the admins or moderators, you must accept that basic fact; what we do is in a constant effort to maintain the health of both the forum and its sense of community. We and our judgements are obviously not infallible and are thought through and checked and in the long-term moderating goes through change and evolution, but I really fail to see how people could blame the exact opposite of what we put constant effort into achieving on our actions as though we or, often specifically, the admins are either complete fools or mad autocrats.

Sincerely,
Digby
HRH Pope Digby V, Prince of Hanover, KC, KG, KP, GBE, OGS, FRSL, BGD, PhD
Chancellor of BBH Open University


Iain Keers

  • Party - TUP
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Re: Questionnaire discussion
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2013, 11:21:27 pm »
Dear Mr Digby,

As you no longer play erepublik, which coincidentally is what this forum is for, I will forgive you for your ignorant comments. As TUP has heavily invested it's time and effort into these forums, I have not noticed the problem so much as many. Yet it exists. So much as half of the UK have no interest whatsoever due merely to the management of the forum and it's rules. Of the remaining half, few bother with the forums as a means of government or even political discussion. The cabinet forum is dead. PD is dead. Most other government forums have been removed. When I was CP the first time there were dozens of threads in cabinet, and in individual sub forums for each ministry. The second time there were none.

These forums have failed. Denying it repeatedly is foolish. Show me statistics on posts per day over the past 4 years and you will see nothing but persistent decline. In fact they would be dead altogether if not propped up by BBH, which frankly is nice but nothing to do with the actual game. Kumnaa does not pay for BBH.

Iain
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar

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Re: Questionnaire discussion
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2013, 11:27:34 pm »
Dear Mr. Keers,

I would like to see your evidence for the following claim (and an explanation as to how you came to the conclusion):

Quote from: "Iain Keers"
So much as half of the UK have no interest whatsoever due merely to the management of the forum and it's rules.

Sincerely,
Digby
HRH Pope Digby V, Prince of Hanover, KC, KG, KP, GBE, OGS, FRSL, BGD, PhD
Chancellor of BBH Open University


N W G

  • President
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Re: Questionnaire discussion
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2013, 01:31:32 am »
Quote from: "Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar"
Dear Mr. Keers,

I would like to see your evidence for the following claim (and an explanation as to how you came to the conclusion):

Quote from: "Iain Keers"
So much as half of the UK have no interest whatsoever due merely to the management of the forum and it's rules.

Sincerely,
Digby


Its quite simple really -

How many active UK citz are there in game compared to how many are on the forums. And when he said 50% i think he was being generous if you see the results
Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:30:39 pm
Quote from: "Minecrafting Instead"

Goku posting on these forums again is not on the table (nor will it ever be)

Iain Keers

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Re: Questionnaire discussion
« Reply #25 on: April 21, 2013, 01:51:13 am »
The fact that you need to see evidence is only evidence of how out of touch and utterly useless you actually are
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar

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Re: Questionnaire discussion
« Reply #26 on: April 21, 2013, 02:01:30 am »
Dear Messrs. G and Keers,

firstly, what does a comparison of in-game population and regular forum population actually prove? Furthermore, this still in no way whatsoever answers or even hints at how it's the fault of how the forums are run that there is a disparity. You must understand that there is, to put it lightly, somewhat of a gap between "the forums aren't as active as is ideal" and "people don't register and stay on the forums because of how they're run." The former statement I am not contesting here - although describing them as nearly dead or a fetid backwater is a little silly - I am merely wondering if there is any actual basis or evidence that could be provided for the latter conclusion that it is because of the various grievances that Mr. Keers et al. have with the admins and how the forums are run.

Secondly, Iain, thank you very much for your display of arrogance but you haven't actually provided anything to back up what you're saying, so at this point we're no further in exploring what you're trying to suggest. I'm not going to make a fuss about it but calling me "out of touch" and "utterly useless" is a bit of a non-response to me asking you to provide evidence for what you were saying.

Sincerely,
Digby
HRH Pope Digby V, Prince of Hanover, KC, KG, KP, GBE, OGS, FRSL, BGD, PhD
Chancellor of BBH Open University


Bohemond4

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Re: Questionnaire discussion
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2013, 02:11:55 am »
almost 3/4 of TUP do not have forum accounts.

the remaining 1/4, maybe 1/2 of that regularly log on, with around 1/4 of the 1/4, or 1/8 posting regularly and caring.

And we are one of the highest forum user parties, the second largest party in the eUK has around 20 accounts on the forums that say anything...and most of those don't even talk anymore, we only see about 2 big New Era posters.

Maybe we need to rethink how the forums are moderated in order to get more users, and, importantly, to get all the parties to encourage their use.
Viscount of Cambridge
We should all just quit the game.  It just to flowering divisive



Carlini8

  • MU - Command - The Legion
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Re: Questionnaire discussion
« Reply #28 on: April 21, 2013, 08:36:05 am »
Quote from: "Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar"
Dear Mr. Keers,

I would like to see your evidence for the following claim (and an explanation as to how you came to the conclusion):

Quote from: "Iain Keers"
So much as half of the UK have no interest whatsoever due merely to the management of the forum and it's rules.

Sincerely,
Digby

I agree with Digby. How can Keers be so blind? It is well over a half that couldn't care less about these forums due to what has gone on here, W-HHHHHHH-EEEEELLLLLLLL over.

Carlini8

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Re: Questionnaire discussion
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2013, 08:48:00 am »
Also, as already stated it is ridiculous to ask for evidence. You are a moderator of our forums, surely you should know something about that is going on within the game. It is clear as day to 95% of the eUK players who read articles.

Party - Congress Votes - Stand on Forums - Reason they have this stand now

TUP - 209 - Do not inform new players of them, once the party that drove the forums, since the moderation changes a few of their most prominent members actively discourage them. Reason: How the forums are run
NE + UKPP - 243 - Actively discourage the forums. Call the current forums unfair and house of the old elite etc - So many quotes, all you have to do is actually log in to the game / irc and you hit one. Reason: How the forums are run
1V - 53 - I am not sure I have seen a 1V guy actively post here - They were founded by Alfa, guess what?
UKRP - 79 - Probably the only party left actively pushing to the forums as they control them, however I don't really see that many, maybe they too have given up on them.

Congress are on longer pushed here, important debates no longer happen here.

When I first played this game you needed to use these forums to really know what was going on, to know the important info that was needed (I am talking about the sort of info that still isn't in articles to this day, you need to get on IRC now which is obviously terribad for groups and storage due to the nature of IRC). Now you can log on here to see what is going on with minecraft, what the latest gay fad is and who wants to play what other game. There is very little useful about eRep bar flaming.

Oh please please please reply with a Dear Mr. Carlini, I apologise for how out of date I am. Seeing a customer service response to a message every 3rd post really livens the forums up... Oh wait.

Frerk

  • Posts: 8338
Re: Questionnaire discussion
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2013, 09:42:02 am »
Quote from: "carlini8"
Also, as already stated it is ridiculous to ask for evidence. You are a moderator of our forums, surely you should know something about that is going on within the game. It is clear as day to 95% of the eUK players who read articles.

Party - Congress Votes - Stand on Forums - Reason they have this stand now

TUP - 209 - Do not inform new players of them, once the party that drove the forums, since the moderation changes a few of their most prominent members actively discourage them. Reason: How the forums are run
NE + UKPP - 243 - Actively discourage the forums. Call the current forums unfair and house of the old elite etc - So many quotes, all you have to do is actually log in to the game / irc and you hit one. Reason: How the forums are run
1V - 53 - I am not sure I have seen a 1V guy actively post here - They were founded by Alfa, guess what?
UKRP - 79 - Probably the only party left actively pushing to the forums as they control them, however I don't really see that many, maybe they too have given up on them.

Congress are on longer pushed here, important debates no longer happen here.

When I first played this game you needed to use these forums to really know what was going on, to know the important info that was needed (I am talking about the sort of info that still isn't in articles to this day, you need to get on IRC now which is obviously terribad for groups and storage due to the nature of IRC). Now you can log on here to see what is going on with minecraft, what the latest gay fad is and who wants to play what other game. There is very little useful about eRep bar flaming.

Oh please please please reply with a Dear Mr. Carlini, I apologise for how out of date I am. Seeing a customer service response to a message every 3rd post really livens the forums up... Oh wait.
And there is the exact issue, nobody is actually advertising the forums besides a quick "You can get free stuff on the forums" every now and then. I'm not asking for evidence; the reason we opened this questionnaire and, simultaneously, a discussion group(Led by Jimbo, GO DO SOMETHING JIMBO) is because we don't need evidence to recognize that what you lot are saying is mostly true. However, while Keers says the solution is to fire myself and everybody else in the admin team, others are saying the solution is to be even harsher.

Also, Iain, I still log in, fight and read articles, so "Not playing eRepublik" doesn't really apply. We're giving you the opportunity to criticize everything we do on those forums, you appear to have a lot to say, so keep it related to the forums, and not our eRepublik careers.
Former everything
Socialist UKRP echelon

Hermanos

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Sir Humphrey Appleby

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Re: Questionnaire discussion
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2013, 11:42:03 am »
People ignore the fact that the general decline of the use of these forums broadly correlates with a general decline of eUK activity ingame :)

There is only so much surplus information you can generate from a game that requires no more than a few fingers and the brain of a duck to operate; those that creatively persist have my respect and gratitude regardless of the platform they choose to post in
<Guitah> not arguing with a Brit about tea is tha sensible thing to do :)
<Appleby> it is common knowledge it is pointless arguing with an addict :p
<Appleby> thus it is pointless arguing about tea with brits



Butjam

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Re: Questionnaire discussion
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2013, 12:10:23 pm »
The declining presence of people on here, especially from a broad spectrum, is why I asked if political stuff belongs on here anymore. I think we probably draw a fairly biased view and have considered, personally, whether this should be focused on being a friendly social area rather than a political one. People have disagreed with me on that one though so never mind.
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Sir Humphrey Appleby

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Re: Questionnaire discussion
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2013, 12:28:57 pm »
I think reducing the rules to rapture-level would actually be a good idea

Edit: Rapture-level being removing only outright trolls and porn/major spam
<Guitah> not arguing with a Brit about tea is tha sensible thing to do :)
<Appleby> it is common knowledge it is pointless arguing with an addict :p
<Appleby> thus it is pointless arguing about tea with brits



Big Ant

  • Posts: 1271
Re: Questionnaire discussion
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2013, 12:30:27 pm »
Quote from: "Butjam"
The declining presence of people on here, especially from a broad spectrum, is why I asked if political stuff belongs on here anymore. I think we probably draw a fairly biased view and have considered, personally, whether this should be focused on being a friendly social area rather than a political one. People have disagreed with me on that one though so never mind.

x2
Past Exp- 44th UK Prime Minister - 3x vCP - 1x MoD - 1x MoHA - 1x MoF Apprentice - 2xRecruitment Officer ESO - 1xMoHA Apprentice - 1xGovernment Advisor - eUK Supplier

Frerk

  • Posts: 8338
Re: Questionnaire discussion
« Reply #35 on: April 21, 2013, 12:30:47 pm »
Quote from: "Sir Humphrey Appleby"
I think reducing the rules to rapture-level would actually be a good idea
Might as well eh?
Former everything
Socialist UKRP echelon

Hermanos

Quote
<Iain_Keers> I LOVE YOU FRERK
<Iain_Keers> JESUS flower
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Sir Humphrey Appleby

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Re: Questionnaire discussion
« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2013, 12:33:47 pm »
Shall I buy the champagne?
<Guitah> not arguing with a Brit about tea is tha sensible thing to do :)
<Appleby> it is common knowledge it is pointless arguing with an addict :p
<Appleby> thus it is pointless arguing about tea with brits



Dan Moir

  • Party - TUP
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Re: Questionnaire discussion
« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2013, 12:47:36 pm »
Perceived harsh moderation has nothing to do with the activity of the forums.  It's actually pretty lenient here already.  Infraction points don't actually do anything unless you are a repeat offender like Goku.  Hardly anyone is banned at all, even for short periods.

The problem is two fold.

1) The game has become incredibly simple and many people who would have come here to ask questions, find out what's going on, etc in the past no longer have to.

2) Certain people/parties have actively discouraged the use of the forums over a period of time and others have let them push more and more away from the forums.  The congress forums used to be busy.  Now they'll elect any idiot and not even ask them to contribute to conversation or communicate with each other in debates.

The solution does not lie in turning this place into a place for people to continually post total shit in every thread (rapture style).  That will only put any sensible people off the forum and your general level of contribution will turn to shit level.

The solution, to some extent, is to move debate back into the forums.  You need to get parties on side and get them encouraging their members to come here.  Governments and MoHA departments in particular need to encourage people to join and get involved.  Forum awards did this well before.  More people need to start threads and contribute to existing threads.  Activity breeds more activity.  Also, stop giving all the positions to random UKRP members.

Of course the forums won't be as active as they were when UK had 9000 people in it but they can certainly be a hell of a lot more active than they are right now.  If you make the whole place like rapture though, I for one won't be hanging around much.  Reducing the quality really won't improve the place.

Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar

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Re: Questionnaire discussion
« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2013, 01:53:21 pm »
Dear Messrs. Bohemond and Carlini,

I wish to address the points from your posts thusly:

Quote from: "Bohemond4"
almost 3/4 of TUP do not have forum accounts.

the remaining 1/4, maybe 1/2 of that regularly log on, with around 1/4 of the 1/4, or 1/8 posting regularly and caring.

And we are one of the highest forum user parties, the second largest party in the eUK has around 20 accounts on the forums that say anything...and most of those don't even talk anymore, we only see about 2 big New Era posters.

Maybe we need to rethink how the forums are moderated in order to get more users, and, importantly, to get all the parties to encourage their use.

Maybe we do, but what I'm asking is how can people say with certainty that the problem of people not using the forum is actually do to do with how the forums are moderated? It's really quite a simple question, I just want to see how people correlate the two things.

Quote from: "carlini8"
It is well over a half that couldn't care less about these forums due to what has gone on here, W-HHHHHHH-EEEEELLLLLLLL over.

Once again, I ask simply how you have come to that conclusion.

Quote from: "carlini8"
Also, as already stated it is ridiculous to ask for evidence. You are a moderator of our forums, surely you should know something about that is going on within the game. It is clear as day to 95% of the eUK players who read articles.

No, it's not ridiculous, and given this is based around how we can improve the forum I think it's quite dangerous to just accept something at face value and act upon it without considering other possibilities.

I don't know a lot of what's going on within the game, personally, because I haven't played it for a very long time now. When I quit, it (and particularly the state of party politics) was in a slow decline, and the impression I get is that that remains the case, although I will of course take note of your assessment:

Quote from: "carlini8"
Party - Congress Votes - Stand on Forums - Reason they have this stand now

TUP - 209 - Do not inform new players of them, once the party that drove the forums, since the moderation changes a few of their most prominent members actively discourage them. Reason: How the forums are run

So basically, rather than constructively bring these disputes up and make an effort to try and improve the forum they instead act in order to damage it?

Quote from: "carlini8"
NE + UKPP - 243 - Actively discourage the forums. Call the current forums unfair and house of the old elite etc - So many quotes, all you have to do is actually log in to the game / irc and you hit one. Reason: How the forums are run

Same question as above.

Quote from: "carlini8"
UKRP - 79 - Probably the only party left actively pushing to the forums as they control them, however I don't really see that many, maybe they too have given up on them.

I thought we had moved on from the nonsense rhetoric that a party controls the forum? Do you really believe that?

Quote from: "carlini8"
When I first played this game you needed to use these forums to really know what was going on, to know the important info that was needed (I am talking about the sort of info that still isn't in articles to this day, you need to get on IRC now which is obviously terribad for groups and storage due to the nature of IRC). Now you can log on here to see what is going on with minecraft, what the latest gay fad is and who wants to play what other game. There is very little useful about eRep bar flaming.

I imagine for new players the first issue remains to be what I experienced when I first joined: that registering on the forums is a much further commitment to the game than simply starting to play it. This used to be negated largely through parties involving people in politics and trying to make the experience better for people, but apparently I've missed something that happened where instead of that, parties have rejected what they consider an "establishment" and no longer work to create a larger community. Over some disputes perhaps the moderation and admins are at fault but to be quite honest anyone who leads their party and community away from the forum because of politics or disputes is being counterproductive and acting without regard for what happens to the larger community beyond their own party.

I'm sure there are justifications for doing it and I'm also sure that they'll be brought up but to be quite honest - no matter what else - we're all people capable of intelligent discussion about an issue or problem that is affecting the community and the responsibility for doing so should be felt by everyone.

Sincerely,
Digby

P.S. Mr. Carlini, what exactly is your problem with the way I choose to post?
HRH Pope Digby V, Prince of Hanover, KC, KG, KP, GBE, OGS, FRSL, BGD, PhD
Chancellor of BBH Open University


Carlini8

  • MU - Command - The Legion
  • Posts: 678
Re: Questionnaire discussion
« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2013, 02:24:41 pm »
Once again, I ask simply how you have come to that conclusion. - Log into the game, look at the articles. Maybe look at the lack of new players on the forum. I don't need to go out and do a survey for something that is right in everyone's (except apparently yours) faces

No, it's not ridiculous, and given this is based around how we can improve the forum I think it's quite dangerous to just accept something at face value and act upon it without considering other possibilities. - Other possibilities? The statement we are talking about is that people are not using the forums because of the stupid political situation we have in this eCountry.

So basically, rather than constructively bring these disputes up and make an effort to try and improve the forum they instead act in order to damage it? -Yes - That is the needed evidence which you require I presume, as I said, you just need to log in to see it. There was an attempt in the first of jamesw's double term but that went south and changed from encouraging the "other side" to give it a go to a campaign of "flower the forums" - That is an answer to NE/UKPP, as for TUP, demoting Keers Talon and Dan, ie TUP, probably had something to do with that.

I thought we had moved on from the nonsense rhetoric that a party controls the forum? Do you really believe that? - I honestly couldn't care less. I quit any sort of stupid party politics this game has to offer after I saw Lily clutch to power as hard as she could in ESO. People are always fairer to their friends and harder on people they don't like, that is evident everywhere.


I imagine for new players the first issue remains to be what I experienced when I first joined: that registering on the forums is a much further commitment to the game than simply starting to play it. This used to be negated largely through parties involving people in politics and trying to make the experience better for people, but apparently I've missed something that happened where instead of that, parties have rejected what they consider an "establishment" and no longer work to create a larger community. Over some disputes perhaps the moderation and admins are at fault but to be quite honest anyone who leads their party and community away from the forum because of politics or disputes is being counterproductive and acting without regard for what happens to the larger community beyond their own party.

When you joined you were encouraged to join the forums. You were told, by at least a handful of people, that the forums would be useful and help you progress in the game. The only barrier at that point was the bother of logging into the forums. When I started, everyone told me the same. As far as I am aware, and I read pretty much all of the ingame media, no one was actively discouraging it in articles. Now, if you join NE or UKPP for the off you are not going to join the forums at all, end of. If you join ESO you might and then you will probably discuss butterflies and fairy's in the discussion threads, TUP probably depends on the PP. I think UKRP push for it for their other games on their private sections. I pushed for Legion members to join a while back just so we could have another area to plan and try to keep members active in the Legion section. Sadly I wouldn't do that anymore. If they venture anywhere other than the Legion subsection they are likely to see flaming and put them off the game. If they put an idea out there they are likely to be flamed themselves for their "newbish-ness". These forums are quite simply no longer friendly and politics is the reason why.

P.S. Mr. Carlini, what exactly is your problem with the way I choose to post? - I don't actually know how long you have had your modship. I just know you didn't used to be a Mod and you didn't used to post like this. Just looks like you are trying to act all professional because you are a Mod instead of just sitting down and having a conversation.