Author Topic: Gender and sex  (Read 11147 times)

Iain Keers

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Gender and sex
« on: August 08, 2014, 03:53:45 pm »
Well there was recently an article in the erep press comparing the FYROM/Macedonia naming issue to a trans male-to-female woman, saying that you can call yourself a woman but you're still a man. I reported it cos I was interested to see what the Romanian admins would say. Ticket below




Anyway how do you stand on gender. Is it entirely something defined by society and thus ourselves? Should biological factors have anything to do with gender? Should gender exist at all?
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 05:24:32 pm by Iain Keers »
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

Malkaiser

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Re: Gender and sex
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2014, 05:37:56 pm »
Yeah I'm replying to this. Have fun:
Gender is hardcoded into your DNA. Half of people have XY (Male) Chromosones and the other half have XX (Female). There is nothing you can do to change this.

These (and other) chromosones cause a few specific chemical changes which are more or less active in some people, the most obvious of which are the physical differences (reproduction) but can include other things like how you act via differing levels of certain hormones (male aggression). Culture also defines male and female behaviours, some of which are because of the biology (females can't be promiscous), some of which are random (pink is female) and sometimes to suit people in power (males in charge).

There has been some great work over the last 100 years (feminism) to stop discrimination based on gender and working out exactly which things are real hardcoded differences (males still can't get pregnant) and which are just cultural constructs (females are also great/terrible at leading countries). You'll never get rid of gender because the 90-99% of the population enjoy the differences and using them to inspire fucking too much.

Some people can’t handle the difference between how they feel and act and how society expects their gender to feel and act. Perhaps some hormones are firing not enough or too much, perhaps it was how they were brought up or a mix. I think there’s always going to be some natural variation, I mentioned before that males are more aggressive (the prison population proves that this is true in general); obviously that doesn’t mean every male is tanked up on testosterone and every female starved of it. There is an overlap between how males and females act so we shouldn’t have laws discriminating based on that.

The controversial bit:
Rather than be their own person and accept this variation some people take extreme measures to reconcile their own personality and that which is culturally normal (hormone replacement, surgery). I actually consider this to be somewhat sexist and discriminatory in itself.

They then have an agenda to validate their irreversible choice so they and their friends impose all kind of pedantic and ridiculous philosophies and arguments on us on internet forums (cis??), often contradictory with others in the same situation. This harms other people who may be miserable for any number of reasons and latch onto this as a solution which may not be right for them.

Even worse some people go around picking argument on the subject to boost their egos (Iain/Woldy). This applies to so few people that most don’t even think about it so don’t have a thought out reply when someone brings it up. So then you get internet shitstorms when some company misunderstands an issue they have hardly thought about.

Most people once they figure themselves out (growing up/coming out) just find their own path and don’t feel the need to conform to what culture says they should be by doing something like cutting off their dicks and then trying to make everyone agree that they made a good choice.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 05:48:50 pm by Malkaiser »

Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar

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Re: Gender and sex
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2014, 05:41:02 pm »
Gender is hardcoded into your DNA.

But it's not, sex is.
HRH Pope Digby V, Prince of Hanover, KC, KG, KP, GBE, OGS, FRSL, BGD, PhD
Chancellor of BBH Open University


Malkaiser

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Re: Gender and sex
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2014, 05:42:03 pm »
Gender is hardcoded into your DNA.

But it's not, sex is.
For 99% of people these are Synonyms. Read the rest of the post, feeling the need to label your behaviour "male" or "female" is sexist. Be yourself.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 05:45:46 pm by Malkaiser »

Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar

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Re: Gender and sex
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2014, 05:48:42 pm »
Gender is hardcoded into your DNA.

But it's not, sex is.
For 99% of people these are Synonyms.

But that's not even close to true, and it doesn't matter even if it was because they're not synonymous.

Sex is not the same as gender.

In response to the OP: gender is influenced by sex but it's also influenced by pretty much everything else. To quote the great prophet Johnobrow (probably): it's a social construct brah.

« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 05:51:25 pm by Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar »
HRH Pope Digby V, Prince of Hanover, KC, KG, KP, GBE, OGS, FRSL, BGD, PhD
Chancellor of BBH Open University


Malkaiser

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Re: Gender and sex
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2014, 05:50:31 pm »
Why do you feel the need to classify your personality as "male" or "female"? It just upsets people who live in the overlap. This cultural construct needs to end, make gender=sex again to end the prejudice and bullshit.

Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar

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Re: Gender and sex
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2014, 05:54:01 pm »
Why do you feel the need to classify your personality as "male" or "female"? It just upsets people who live in the overlap. This cultural construct needs to end, make gender=sex again to end the prejudice and bullshit.

I don't, but if someone or a form asks me for my sex I put male because I am. If someone asked me what my "personality" is and I was so inclined, I could well say that I was female or trans or whatever, because it's rooted from my person and sense of self (same as gender).

Also ignoring differences between words and telling trans people that they have certain biological traits and thus can't claim to be a different gender is prejudice and bullshit.
HRH Pope Digby V, Prince of Hanover, KC, KG, KP, GBE, OGS, FRSL, BGD, PhD
Chancellor of BBH Open University


Iain Keers

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Re: Gender and sex
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2014, 05:55:13 pm »
Regardless of your opinions about why people are trans, the fact is that people are trans. If someone asks to be identified as a woman, would you do so?
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

Malkaiser

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Re: Gender and sex
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2014, 06:13:05 pm »
I don't, but if someone or a form asks me for my sex I put male because I am. If someone asked me what my "personality" is and I was so inclined, I could well say that I was female or trans or whatever, because it's rooted from my person and sense of self (same as gender).
The people writing those forms putting "gender" mean "biological sex", as I said most people don't have/haven't learned different meanings for those words. Nobody actually wants to know if your personality is more "masuline" or "feminine".

Regardless of your opinions about why people are trans, the fact is that people are trans. If someone asks to be identified as a woman, would you do so?
What I was trying to get at is that people shouldn't feel the need to go that far. They should be comfortable being male and acting "culturally average female" without having to get themselves labelled/acknowledged as a "culturally average female" biologically and legally. Having to put your DNA type on forms really isn't meant as an insult.

Since it happens, I don't mind people trying to tranform themselves biologically and legally into the other sex though I feel sorry for the ones were it doesn't work out. What I do mind is the militant ideologues going out of their way to making people's life difficult, like you Iain. The people running the game probably have no idea what you are on about Iain yet you want to start a crusade again?
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 06:16:41 pm by Malkaiser »

Niemand

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Re: Gender and sex
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2014, 06:36:14 pm »
I don't, but if someone or a form asks me for my sex I put male because I am. If someone asked me what my "personality" is and I was so inclined, I could well say that I was female or trans or whatever, because it's rooted from my person and sense of self (same as gender).
The people writing those forms putting "gender" mean "biological sex", as I said most people don't have/haven't learned different meanings for those words. Nobody actually wants to know if your personality is more "masuline" or "feminine".

Regardless of your opinions about why people are trans, the fact is that people are trans. If someone asks to be identified as a woman, would you do so?
What I was trying to get at is that people shouldn't feel the need to go that far. They should be comfortable being male and acting "culturally average female" without having to get themselves labelled/acknowledged as a "culturally average female" biologically and legally. Having to put your DNA type on forms really isn't meant as an insult.

Since it happens, I don't mind people trying to tranform themselves biologically and legally into the other sex though I feel sorry for the ones were it doesn't work out. What I do mind is the militant ideologues going out of their way to making people's life difficult, like you Iain. The people running the game probably have no idea what you are on about Iain yet you want to start a crusade again?
It is good when people shouldn't feel the need to go that far. However there are lots of people we do want that. Telling they should be comfortable with being male is not the way anything will become better.

About gender: there is a lot between male and female (not only XXY and other genetic variations on the X/Y things but other genetics are important to for your gender and sex (or other words with about the same meaning).
Difference between men and women is far and far less than the difference between males and it is also far and far less than the difference between females. That all governments are wanting to say who are women and who are men is quite bad,. It is about as bad as to try to say who is white, who is black and who is a mix (apartheid failed in doing that, they had to transfer more and more people between the colours they picked).
Anyways I think Iain had a point when he asked admins about the gender issue. The fact the admins failed to answer properly didn't surprise me.
Culture 'facts' are so strong they pollute our free thinking.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 06:37:49 pm by Niemand »
Lady of the Lake

Iain Keers

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Re: Gender and sex
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2014, 06:40:15 pm »
Let me ask you something Goku

Why is sex on forms? Why does anyone ask what your gender is at all?
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

Malkaiser

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Re: Gender and sex
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2014, 07:14:45 pm »
Equality monitoring and to verify identity.

Niemand

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Re: Gender and sex
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2014, 10:42:39 pm »
To verify identity the colour of your eyes or the length of your nose would be far more interesting. When about 50% is the same I think it is not a part that is that important to prove identity.
Equality monitoring in my passport? You must be either kidding me or you live in a culture that is far beyond my imagination.

As said I think it is the culture that thinks it is very important what sex/gender someone has. it has nothing to do with equality and/or trying to indentify me.
Lady of the Lake

Wayne

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Re: Gender and sex
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2014, 10:43:12 pm »
I still listen to Against Me!...





Malkaiser

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Re: Gender and sex
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2014, 10:49:06 pm »
To verify identity the colour of your eyes or the length of your nose would be far more interesting. When about 50% is the same I think it is not a part that is that important to prove identity.
Equality monitoring in my passport? You must be either kidding me or you live in a culture that is far beyond my imagination.

As said I think it is the culture that thinks it is very important what sex/gender someone has. it has nothing to do with equality and/or trying to indentify me.

You are misinterpreting my post in the stupidest way you can, troll. Switch around which applies to which as well you know. The biggest issue real transpeople have is morons taking up their cause as an ego/trolling exercise as it discredits them.

If someone has gone all the way to change sex, I'm on board with getting them whatever rights they want (including legal change) though personally id question their choice there are some rare strong cases. What pisses me off is people picking trans fights when nobody is complaining, or listing 50 different flavours of trans and lumping real cases in with people who think they should have been born a dragon.

Imagine two parallel futures:
1) In one gender on application forms is banned, in the other it is allowed and the data was used to identify that 85% of tech jobs were going to men so funding was provided to get more girls into science at school.
2) In one gender for identification is banned, in the other policemean are able to say "I'm looking for a man..." and with one word narrow down the search to 50% of the population.
This is why we have this, nobody gives a shit if you male but identify as a lesbian woman and dress like a man (I have seen this IRL) and don't feel like "male" or "female" sums up how much of a unique flower you are.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 11:14:32 pm by Malkaiser »

Iain Keers

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Re: Gender and sex
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2014, 11:21:56 pm »
You're drunk Goku, go home.

Point is that gender on forms is relating to which societal construct you identify with. Nobody asks you it because they want to know if you can make babies, which is the only part your DNA relates to.
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

Malkaiser

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Re: Gender and sex
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2014, 11:29:50 pm »
You're drunk Goku, go home.

Point is that gender on forms is relating to which societal construct you identify with. Nobody asks you it because they want to know if you can make babies, which is the only part your DNA relates to.

I just listed two reasons why it is used and why it is a good thing.

Iain Keers

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Re: Gender and sex
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2014, 11:33:34 pm »
You listed two things that are good reasons to have *gender* on forms. But not two reasons to have your oh so important DNA identity on forms. You can still do equality monitoring and identity checks if someone has their actual gender as opposed to their DNA identity on forms. Besides when you need someone's bloody gender to identify who they are you're fucked ffs.
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

Malkaiser

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Re: Gender and sex
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2014, 11:55:11 pm »
You listed two things that are good reasons to have *gender* on forms. But not two reasons to have your oh so important DNA identity on forms. You can still do equality monitoring and identity checks if someone has their actual gender as opposed to their DNA identity on forms. Besides when you need someone's bloody gender to identify who they are you're fucked ffs.
As I said it gets bloody confusing because for 99.9% of people these words mean the same thing and then we have more than one person replying in this thread about different things and getting mixed up on exactly which point of contention we are discussing... what goes on on forms isn't exactly the same as the other stuff.
So it's a great thing to pick a fight over, well done Iain!

Everyone acts so differently from each other that I don't accept the premise of a distinct "male" and "female" social construct you are arguing against in the first place, which is why I'm using sex/gender interchangably because I don't accept they are different.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 12:00:29 am by Malkaiser »

kdoggroundtwo

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Re: Gender and sex
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2014, 12:28:17 am »
Going back to original question.

My view of it seems to be the opposite of goku's "If it doesn't effect me it's unimportant so stick to M/F"

in that it is "Who am I to tell other people how to identify"

While I don't understand all the transgender and 3rd gender and so on stuff it doesn't really effect other people.

And the hole form argument. Many now have a prefare not to say option so...
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 12:33:11 am by kdoggroundtwo »

 

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