Author Topic: Defending property  (Read 3992 times)

Diakun

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2014, 06:04:33 pm »
many victims of burglary say they feel its like they have been personally attacked and violated by such an invasion. home is a personal sanctuary and i would regard it as an extension, as well as my stuff such as my pc which is my life. and they will not have it unless they can escape from my stabby attempts

Yeah, and that's why the law is often harsh on burglaries and such, because it crosses over into privacy issues.

Unless they're doing anything to threaten you (your person) then aren't able to just attack them, though. You can restrain them (or attempt to), and if there's physical resistance you can act proportionately, but as I said it comes down to two things: necessity and proportion.

Otherwise all it is is breaking the law to get revenge for someone breaking the law, which if allowed would create a ludicrous legal system.

Attack may be the best way to defend yourself, waiting for them to become a threat or giving them time to gain an advantage seems a rather foolhardy and dangerous idea. preventing them from taking your stuff isnt revenge, attacking after subduing them would be.
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Dan Moir

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2014, 07:25:01 pm »
This guy is probably the most famous case as he went to jail for shooting intruders.

There was also a case near me where the guy in the local post office stabbed a robber with the knife he used to untie paper bundles etc.  He then grabbed the guys sawn off shotgun and pointed it at him.  At this point the gang fled and the guy who was stabbed was left to die somewhere by them.  He was never charged but was questioned a lot, it dragged on for a while and it obviously put him under a lot of stress.

Regardless of all that, if someone intruded into my house I would have no hesitation in battering them, even if they were trying to run away.  I'd try not to kill them because obviously jail wouldn't be much fun but there's no way I'd wilfully let them get away with it.  I'd probably attempt a citizens arrest and "reasonable force".

Of course if they were armed and I wasn't, it would be a different story.  Thankfully we're not in USA though and everyone doesn't carry guns around.

johnobrow

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2014, 10:12:47 pm »
Everyone but the rich should be allowed to defend their property.
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Butjam

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2014, 04:00:22 am »
And practically speaking Johno, what would designate someone as "rich"? I always thought you were against labels, or are we just going to designate anybody of a certain net value as unprotected outside the law?
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Iain Keers

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2014, 10:44:50 am »
I think he was joking. Here are some expansions on the idea though:

Should governments be able to "steal" property (ie nationalise or force you to sell)

Should companies be able to defend their property with physical force?

Is it actually about property in your house, or protecting your "safe space"  or Castle or whatever from invasion?
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

johnobrow

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2014, 11:08:40 am »
We're talking about "property" as if we own the buildings we live in, but even in the example given in the OP that wasn't the case: Iain lived there but (presumably) it was owned by someone else; it was his property that was stolen, but it wasn't his property that was broken into, he merely resided there. Butjam asked me to define 'rich.' Well, perhaps we could define it as those who own property they don't live in and generate an income from (this would include landlords and certainly large businesses). I think it's useful to make a distinction between these two types of property: things one owns that are personal possessions (Iain's laptop, for example) and property one makes a profit from simply by being in ownership of it (such as the house Iain's landlord owned). In my opinion the latter is inherently theft anyway - it only exists as property because it was taken through violence and exploitation in the first place. To take back from these people isn't theft but appropriation. Given that, should landlords be allowed to evict squatters? Or should squatters be allowed to hang landlords from the banisters?
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Iain Keers

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2014, 11:31:34 am »
That argument is quite murky. For example, if you have a spare room, renting it makes you a landlord. But if the alternative is not renting it, it's a waste of space. And why should someone who owns their house give it to people for free?

Most landlords in the UK who aren't big companies are rich because they are baby boomers who benefitted massively from booms and are now getting golden pensions paid for by the current working population. It's created a new landowning class because their children will inherit their property. This was the case with the property I was staying in anyway.

Idk that being a landlord is inherently theft though. Imagine you build a house yourself with your own hands. Then you get married or whatever and move in with your partner. You now have the option to sell the house you made or to rent it. In a lot of countries renting is seen as "normal" and most people rent (ie Germany). In this case there has been no exploitation since you've made the house yourself and renting use of it is no different to charging someone for use of anything else. For example a photography lab charging people to develop photos or a farmer renting use of a combine harvester.
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

Darkmantle

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2014, 01:47:11 pm »
Companies protecting their properties would come under reasonable force as well, you couldn't just attack someone for breaking in, but there are plenty of cases of people being restrained until the police arrive.

Iain Keers

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2014, 02:12:15 pm »
So if looters armed with baseball bats broke into your shop and you were there, could you reasonably shoot them? I mean it's a reasonable question.

I'm not trying to start a debate about what the Law says either, I already know that. I'm asking morally what people think is appropriate.
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

Diakun

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2014, 03:51:15 pm »
So if looters armed with baseball bats broke into your shop and you were there, could you reasonably shoot them? I mean it's a reasonable question.

I'm not trying to start a debate about what the Law says either, I already know that. I'm asking morally what people think is appropriate.

id say shoot at them to scare them off, but only actually shoot them if they moved to attack you
Nymeus - 5:56 PM
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Wayne

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2014, 06:07:22 pm »
Or should squatters be allowed to hang landlords from the banisters?






Dan Moir

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2014, 06:32:23 pm »
So if looters armed with baseball bats broke into your shop and you were there, could you reasonably shoot them? I mean it's a reasonable question.

I'm not trying to start a debate about what the Law says either, I already know that. I'm asking morally what people think is appropriate.

No, since it would be illegal to have a loaded firearm even if you were licensed.  Pretty sure you'd get locked up for that.

If, however, you grabbed the cheapest bottle of vodka you can find off the shelf behind you and smacked it over the guys head then I'd imagine you'd be ok.

Iain Keers

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2014, 07:06:03 pm »
I'm not talking about what is legal, I'm talking about what is moral.
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

Dan Moir

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2014, 07:34:56 pm »
I'm not talking about what is legal, I'm talking about what is moral.

Well you said reasonable.  In any case, it's not moral to take a gun into the shop you run.  You do have a right to defend yourself and your property though with reasonable force and I personally think that stopping criminals is morally a good thing.  You're not only stopping them from committing a crime against you but very likely future crimes against others.

judeconnors

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2014, 10:57:54 pm »
So if looters armed with baseball bats broke into your shop and you were there, could you reasonably shoot them?

In Republican America... yes.

johnobrow

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2014, 05:37:02 pm »
So if looters armed with baseball bats broke into your shop and you were there, could you reasonably shoot them? I mean it's a reasonable question.

I'm not trying to start a debate about what the Law says either, I already know that. I'm asking morally what people think is appropriate.

The only appropriate course of action in that situation is to hand over your firearm(s) to the looters. Or possibly to shoot yourself.

If you want a more sensible answer, I don't see what property cold be so special that shooting someone, or even a minor attack to preserve ownership of it could be justified. Unless it's your life-support machine or something.

Again though, I think context is relevant. Looting is very different from the systematic everyday plundering of patriarchal white supremacist colonial capitalism. If you think you can get away with it, by all means shoot your boss, but a burglar is probably just looking to score so perhaps give them a break.
EREP IS DEAD LABOUR AND DEAD TIME - LIFE IS ELSEWHERE
-------->DESTROY THAT WHICH DESTROYS YOU<--------

Iain Keers

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2014, 05:48:19 pm »
I wouldn't kill someone over property, but this is why I brought a shop up. In the case of your home, you can argue your safe space has been invaded and it threatens you or whatever. In the case of your business that's not the case, and there is such a thing as insurance.

Interesting that you assumed it would be the bosses business not your own johno. I wouldn't even stop drinking my tea nevermind risk my life for someone else's profits.
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

johnobrow

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2014, 06:17:29 pm »
Defending your safe space is an interesting point. I think it's reasonable to say that sometimes it's justified to defend your "safe(r) space" and therefore your (perhaps limited) autonomy through violence.
EREP IS DEAD LABOUR AND DEAD TIME - LIFE IS ELSEWHERE
-------->DESTROY THAT WHICH DESTROYS YOU<--------

 

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