Author Topic: congrats tories  (Read 7787 times)

Niemand

  • MU - The Legion
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Re: congrats tories
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2015, 01:15:34 pm »
>getting a seat
>winning the election

Two different things. You need to get the majority (or largest minority) of a vote to win. Greens have won one seat in history. I can't think of another seat in the country where they've ever polled anywhere near close enough to win. Most places they lose their deposit. Voting for them is spoiling your ballot, and if you don't understand that you don't understand the electoral system. Why do you think all the shit parties are desperate to change it?

You are right that it is about winning the elections. Sadly it is not about winning the voters for your ideas.
I think this is why the "shit parties" are desperate that nothing will change in the electoral system. ;)
Lady of the Lake

Thomas765

  • Party - UKRP
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Re: congrats tories
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2015, 01:36:24 pm »
The Greens have, subjectively, the best policies for my needs, along with the SNP. Labour, Tories and Lib Dems (haha) are really not an option up here any more after that Johann Lamont scandal which made everyone hate Milliband bar a few die harders up here. My home constituency is Falkirk, local MP is former Labour Eric Joyce (most recent incident) and the Falkirk-Union scandal has really put a lot of people off Labour. Though on the other hand, like me, most of the country would never vote Tory.

Malkaiser

  • Posts: 7572
Re: congrats tories
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2015, 02:59:59 pm »
>getting a seat
>winning the election

Two different things. You need to get the majority (or largest minority) of a vote to win. Greens have won one seat in history. I can't think of another seat in the country where they've ever polled anywhere near close enough to win. Most places they lose their deposit. Voting for them is spoiling your ballot, and if you don't understand that you don't understand the electoral system. Why do you think all the shit parties are desperate to change it?
You are right Iain, no party which didn't get top votes/seats in an election have ever influenced a government :lol:

The Greens have, subjectively, the best policies for my needs, along with the SNP. Labour, Tories and Lib Dems (haha) are really not an option up here any more after that Johann Lamont scandal which made everyone hate Milliband bar a few die harders up here. My home constituency is Falkirk, local MP is former Labour Eric Joyce (most recent incident) and the Falkirk-Union scandal has really put a lot of people off Labour. Though on the other hand, like me, most of the country would never vote Tory.
All you can do is vote Green, build the party up and get things sorted out in a few parliaments time by either Greens winning the election or the pressure on Labour causing them to stop being centre right shite.

Iain Keers

  • Party - TUP
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Re: congrats tories
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2015, 03:23:03 pm »
All you're doing is arguing for the sake of it, I can't believe you're so ignorant to think the greens will be the next government.

PR is an even worse system, since you either end up with a bunch of weak governments nobody likes (like italy) or a situation where you vote for a big left wing party and they go into coalition with the big right wing party (like germany)
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

Niemand

  • MU - The Legion
  • Posts: 849
Re: congrats tories
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2015, 04:30:26 pm »
I think it is not the system that should decide what government would be chosen, but the population.

Indeed you have quite a lot weak governments in PR systems, the strongest government you get mostly in semi democratic systems (like in China and Russia), or in nations where you have dictators (like North Korea) or real monarchies (like Saudi Arabia). For me district systems are not so democratic. It can lead to the situation like in USA where the two big parties each get about 25% of votes from the population, they fight each other to the dead and many citizens are very disappointed.
Most (semi-)democratic systems are chosen in times there was a lot of rebellion against the leaders and the leaders needed something to appease the rebels/population.
In the UK I think majority still love the district system (even when the borders are made by governments to get a good outcome for the rulers and even when more and more people do not want to vote for the old parties that have strong bases).  think it is the culture of a nation.
In the Netherlands most people support our election system even when they do not know the process.

What is most important is that people are informed very well how the system works, how the parties work and for what these parties stand. Alas, I think in most western democratic nations people do lack these information, so the democracy is very weak. Another problem that in these days people are more individuals and opinions are not only divided between right or left and conservative or modern, but in many more directions. The result is that almost nowhere a party can get majority behind it, only the election system can do that for them.

Sometimes when you reach a clear majority the result is that democracy is far away like in Hungary. :(
That said, situation was a bit like that in Poland some years ago, but it has improved there. :)

There are so much choices to make a vote. I do not care what party people vote for as long as they are informed about what the result of their vote could be.
Lady of the Lake

Diakun

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Re: congrats tories
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2015, 04:36:49 pm »
governments should be as weak as possible, all the counties should be autonomous states then we may even get close to democratic rule for once
Nymeus - 5:56 PM
I've got a picture of diakun and his dick
he can easily make people ashamed of how small they are, cause his is big
need to know anything else?

Malkaiser

  • Posts: 7572
Re: congrats tories
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2015, 06:57:10 pm »
All you're doing is arguing for the sake of it, I can't believe you're so ignorant to think the greens will be the next government.

PR is an even worse system, since you either end up with a bunch of weak governments nobody likes (like italy) or a situation where you vote for a big left wing party and they go into coalition with the big right wing party (like germany)
Wait where did I say that the greens would be the next government?

I'M arguing for the sake of it with contributions to the topic but you are not wby literally making things up! Oppositeland!

Iain Keers

  • Party - TUP
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Re: congrats tories
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2015, 07:15:36 pm »
You're just trolling, either that or you genuinely don't understand that's it's impossible for greens to win.
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

Malkaiser

  • Posts: 7572
Re: congrats tories
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2015, 09:21:09 pm »
You're just trolling, either that or you genuinely don't understand that's it's impossible for greens to win.
It's clear that you are not reading my posts.

I've said every single time that it would take years for the greens to win, the point is that you have to start building up the party towards that goal at some point otherwise you get stuck with labour's liars forever.

Butjam

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Re: congrats tories
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2015, 03:32:04 am »
Personally, I favour Butjamocracy. It's where I'm in charge, and when people are sad I drown them in alcohol. Dissidents are either removed by liver failure or too drunk to care
Quote
[20:04] <&butjam> .seen TheMessiah
[20:04] <&fapfire> Looking for yourself, eh butjam?

Quote from: RodneyMcKay
Can we all just play the game and have a bit of fun please.
Angry butjam is best butjam.

Diakun

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Re: congrats tories
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2015, 12:02:58 pm »
Personally, I favour Butjamocracy. It's where I'm in charge, and when people are sad I drown them in alcohol. Dissidents are either removed by liver failure or too drunk to care
opiates or no deal
Nymeus - 5:56 PM
I've got a picture of diakun and his dick
he can easily make people ashamed of how small they are, cause his is big
need to know anything else?

Dan Moir

  • Party - TUP
  • Posts: 6376
Re: congrats tories
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2015, 12:18:04 pm »
it would take years for the greens to win

There is a growing disillusionment amongst the population with the Tories and Labour.



Bear in mind that is vote share though and doesn't indicate representation in parliament.  The system favours labour and the tories.  The lib dems came second in Tory strongholds and second in Labour strongholds, contributing to their overall share of the vote but not increasing their number of seats in parliament.

It is impossible for the green party to have a majority.  Certainly not in any of our lifetimes.  The best they can hope for is gaining such a level of influence that the major parties are forced into adopting some of their policies or variations of them passed off as their own, in much the same way as they have been forced to make anti-foreigner policies because of the growing influence of those UKIP morons and an often bigoted electorate.

The main parties are in a situation where they can adapt to maintain their position if they need to.  That's what Labour felt they had to do to win elections again with New Labour and it's why these two parties will almost certainly dominate UK elections for generations at least.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 12:24:49 pm by Dan Moir »

Malkaiser

  • Posts: 7572
Re: congrats tories
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2015, 04:54:05 pm »
UKIP shows that you can build up over some years and take an election you've focused on when events and your momentum allow. Labour itself shows that you can replace an established party if their policies/standing are shit enough. SNP already did this to labour in Scotland.

Where is this lack of imagination saying "impossible" coming from? Again if you never start then it'll never change. Labour are centre right liars and imcompetent, they need to be destroyed for the good of the country.

Diakun

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Re: congrats tories
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2015, 05:07:47 pm »
all the parties are liars and incompetent, imposing their shitty views on everyone instead of letting people govern themselves
Nymeus - 5:56 PM
I've got a picture of diakun and his dick
he can easily make people ashamed of how small they are, cause his is big
need to know anything else?

Dan Moir

  • Party - TUP
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Re: congrats tories
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2015, 05:09:49 pm »
Where is this lack of imagination saying "impossible" coming from?

From the real world where we have an established and predictable political system.  Unlike your fantasy world where you would probably vote for the Lolicon Party if you could.

all the parties are liars and incompetent, imposing their shitty views on everyone instead of letting people govern themselves

And that's just ideological crap that wouldn't work for so many reasons.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 05:15:21 pm by Dan Moir »

Diakun

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Re: congrats tories
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2015, 05:15:29 pm »
the nazis went from a mocked unknown party to the majority in 3 years, recession and hardships throws any predictatibly out the window

also cool story bro. self governence is easy to achieve, just those in power inevitably destroy limitations of government to exert control over the population, thus governments need to be local and small enough to be ousted by the people at any time
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 05:26:41 pm by Diakun »
Nymeus - 5:56 PM
I've got a picture of diakun and his dick
he can easily make people ashamed of how small they are, cause his is big
need to know anything else?

Dan Moir

  • Party - TUP
  • Posts: 6376
Re: congrats tories
« Reply #36 on: January 18, 2015, 05:48:09 pm »
the nazis went from a mocked unknown party to the majority in 3 years, recession and hardships throws any predictatibly out the window

also cool story bro. self governence is easy to achieve, just those in power inevitably destroy limitations of government to exert control over the population, thus governments need to be local and small enough to be ousted by the people at any time

That's rubbish.  If you tried to run a country through small local governments then you would just get corruption.  Nevermind the lack of national policy and failure of diplomacy and trade.

Under your system, are we going to have a common currency?
Are we going to have common taxation?
Are we going to have common education policy?
Health policy?
Emergency services?
Law?
Power (energy)?
etc etc etc

How do you propose doing any of that without a national government?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 06:06:32 pm by Dan Moir »

Diakun

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Re: congrats tories
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2015, 05:59:31 pm »
nonsense, weak local governments would be run by the sole consent of the governed. corruption and abuse deterred due to fear of the people being able to oust those in power.

rule by the people would make diplomacy easier than from the whims of fewer, more powerfull rulers and trade would happen naturally anyway.
Nymeus - 5:56 PM
I've got a picture of diakun and his dick
he can easily make people ashamed of how small they are, cause his is big
need to know anything else?

Dan Moir

  • Party - TUP
  • Posts: 6376
Re: congrats tories
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2015, 06:05:38 pm »
That's absolutely ridiculous.

Your going to change multiple ineffective governments as often as premier league teams change their managers.  You'll end up with New Era in charge and total fuckwittery will rule all.  Also see my points about the need for a national government.

Diakun

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Re: congrats tories
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2015, 06:22:47 pm »
each state will decide themselves what they want, they may all agree to use a common system or not. i dont really give a shit about national policy

effective governments are tyrannical ones, strange how the most effective governments tend to be dictatorships isnt it?
Nymeus - 5:56 PM
I've got a picture of diakun and his dick
he can easily make people ashamed of how small they are, cause his is big
need to know anything else?

 

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