: Age of consent  ( 7362 )

Iain Keers

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Age of consent
« : November 11, 2014, 08:26:05 PM »
Since my last sex related controversial topic went so well, I thought I'd make another.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent

If an 18 year old girl has sex with a 14 year old boy in the UK, she is a paedophile. If an 18 year old German has sex with a 14 year old German, it's perfectly legal.

Can you objectively name an age of consent which is morally correct in all cultures, and if not, can you objectively call anyone a paedophile? Is paedophilia merely a legal definition dependent on the local customs?

For the purposes of debate, assume that both partners have the capacity to make a decision on the issue and there is no coercion.
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Diakun

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Re: Age of consent
« #1 : November 11, 2014, 08:46:09 PM »
there should be no age of consent laws, nature dictates that puberty is physical maturity for sex so that should the decider if consent can be given, not the whim of subjective societal views.

paedophilia itself is and must be not a crime since it is a thought not an act (flower off thinkpol), sexing those below natures physical maturity is where the law should step in.
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RodneyMcKay

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Re: Age of consent
« #2 : November 11, 2014, 10:16:18 PM »
It's pretty much a view that is perpetuated by society, no one wants to stand up against it in case they are labeled a pedophile.

I think it's just the culture nowadays to vilify anyone that does something society deems as not correct, and these terms are waved around at anyone and everyone that might go against the norm.


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Iain Keers

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Re: Age of consent
« #3 : November 11, 2014, 10:33:52 PM »
there should be no age of consent laws, nature dictates that puberty is physical maturity for sex so that should the decider if consent can be given, not the whim of subjective societal views.

paedophilia itself is and must be not a crime since it is a thought not an act (flower off thinkpol), sexing those below natures physical maturity is where the law should step in.

Well it's quite hard to tell if someone has hit puberty (some people look like they haven't when they have, especially girls). But most common law throughout Europe put the age of consent at 14 because that was the commonly accepted age where nearly everyone has reached puberty.
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

ApronChef

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Re: Age of consent
« #4 : November 11, 2014, 11:21:30 PM »
Honestly, this is a subject I've never given much thought to.

Quite an interesting subject.

I have however thought why the EU never tried to create a universal age of consent, as it would be something they'd try to control.

Its just interesting how the majority of the eastern block have a higher consent age than the centre of europe. Even turkey is a big of an interesting one, seeing as its heavily a muslim majority. (I know it has freedom of religious belief etc etc), but generally muslims are reknown for young arranged marriages.

Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar

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Re: Age of consent
« #5 : November 11, 2014, 11:37:18 PM »
I don't think it's as important to worry about the older party involved and whether or not it's paedophilia but whether or not the younger can be of sound mind or make an informed decision legally to have sex, which is obviously why statutory rape or that specific sexual assault exists.

The only real factor involved is whether or not it's exploitation or not - the age is just a legal frame that's used to make things easier. That said, most things related to sex is often heavily linked with exploitation at any age, at least in debate (prostitution, pornography, etc.).

I think most people would agree, though, that it's pretty silly that if (using our age of consent) one person is over 16 and the other is 15 but a few hours away from their 16th birthday that those few hours constitute the difference between statutory rape and paedophilia and perfectly normal sex. Then again, you could use that argument about something like being slightly under the drink-drive limit and just over, so meh.
« : November 11, 2014, 11:40:13 PM Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar »
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Iain Keers

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Re: Age of consent
« #6 : November 11, 2014, 11:55:58 PM »
There are some close age clauses. For example in Hungary if both parties are under 18 the AOC is 12. In Italy if there is three years or less between the partners the AOC is lower.

A lot of Muslim countries have no AOC, just the requirement that people are married. However there have been cases of prepubescent girls being essentially raped by older arranged husbands, so I believe some countries have introduced laws regarding that.

Turkey is interesting because it began after WW1 with quite a low age of consent, then later raised it to 18. Turkey is quite a liberal country though, especially when it comes to alcohol and sex. I doubt the law is enforced.
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paultyndale

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Re: Age of consent
« #7 : November 12, 2014, 12:06:51 AM »
As well as taking someones physical age in to consideration what about their mental age?

Derek Bentley, who was 18 was hanged, following an attempted robbery in which a policeman was killed.  His accomplice who actually fired the fatal shot was only 16 and thus was imprisoned and released after serving 10 years. It was subsequently claimed that Bentley was "borderline feeble minded" and therefore mentally much younger than his accomplice.




Diakun

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Re: Age of consent
« #8 : November 12, 2014, 12:55:52 AM »
mental age is probably something that is impossible to gauge, id say they'd need to be actually diagnosed with a mental condition that is known would cause inability to consent
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Butjam

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Re: Age of consent
« #9 : November 12, 2014, 01:37:08 AM »
What Iain mentioned about considerations being made for the AOC sounds reasonable to me, although it's mired with difficulty. For example, whilst 2 15 year olds wouldn't pose much of a problem for our British culture, I'm sure a 15-7 relationship would. I don't think there is an objective right or wrong answer, or at least not one I am confident of stating
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Diakun

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Re: Age of consent
« #10 : November 12, 2014, 02:52:23 AM »
who cares for british culture, society are morons
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ApronChef

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Re: Age of consent
« #11 : November 12, 2014, 09:57:31 AM »
who cares for british culture, society are morons

Honestly, British culture is probably responsible for a lot of people following our footsteps. Most of the countries that were in the british empire have a very similar age of consent to us.

It is an odd thought of how the world would have developed socially if we never had an empire. Would most of the world have developed uniquer standpoints on age of consent or even had one etc

Sir Humphrey Appleby

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Re: Age of consent
« #12 : November 12, 2014, 11:45:06 AM »
I would argue modern British culture essentially just means you were drunk in the act/largely assume you already know a lot

Given a lot of us started drinking at 14/15 I expect this may weigh in on the usual self-justifications for smoking, shagging etc
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Iain Keers

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Re: Age of consent
« #13 : November 12, 2014, 01:01:40 PM »
Age of consent in Britain was 12 during most of the imperial era, the higher age of consent was brought on by the rise in schooling for children and worries that they wouldn't have time to finish if they were getting married young. Pregnancy and sex outside if marriage wasn't really a big issue.

On the mental capacity argument, that kind of exists in the Law now, here at least. It's possible to be arrested for having sex with someone of any age if it's judged to be an exploitative relationship and certainly most adults without capacity (ie with learning difficulties or mental health problems) would be protected  by social services/adult safeguarding.
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Malkaiser

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Re: Age of consent
« #14 : November 13, 2014, 06:35:30 PM »
This is really easy:
1) Figure out which age you want people to be fully adults at. In our society this seems to be 18 but you could argue 16.
2) Make that the age of consent.
3) Have a clause which allows sex between children below the age of consent as long as they are close in age. You could stick a minimum age for this to apply to. I would tentatively say 14 or 12 minimum and 1 year gap, but I don't really know anything about this to be able to make a judgement.
Solved. You're welcome.

Age of consent laws are there to protect young people from abusive adults. People who argue about how to define paedophilia on the internet tend to be paedophiles, so far everyone is posting sensibly but watch out for people trying to nudge the conversation over to "why shouldn't I have sex with a 15 year old with the mental capacity to choose?" or "hey people over 12 are technically not children, there this other latin word for it..." or "i love children but don't act on it so I'm reclaiming the word!".

Any normal adult would be utterly bored by a 15 year old.

Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar

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Re: Age of consent
« #15 : November 13, 2014, 06:46:42 PM »
Any normal adult would be utterly bored by a 15 year old.

I think this statement particularly peculiar. By normal adult in your post you mean 16 or 18, so are you really trying to suggest that at 15 a child can be completely unsexual and uninteresting to "normal" people and then as soon as they turn 16 they suddenly are? It's not something that's just categories or black and white (I hate using clichés but I can't think of how better to express it), especially considering the subjectivity and all the different factors involved in what people find attractive or sexually interesting.

Something else just struck me, should there be a distinction (at least in a case-by-case basis) between adults who are interested in people under age because of personal attraction etc. and adults who are interested in people under age because they're under age/have a specific body type or sexual appeal (and would lose interest once they were older and had adult physical characteristics, for instance)?
« : November 13, 2014, 06:52:21 PM Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar »
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Diakun

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Re: Age of consent
« #16 : November 13, 2014, 06:53:12 PM »
This is really easy:
1) Figure out which age you want people to be fully adults at. In our society this seems to be 18 but you could argue 16.
2) Make that the age of consent.
3) Have a clause which allows sex between children below the age of consent as long as they are close in age. You could stick a minimum age for this to apply to. I would tentatively say 14 or 12 minimum and 1 year gap, but I don't really know anything about this to be able to make a judgement.
Solved. You're welcome.

Age of consent laws are there to protect young people from abusive adults. People who argue about how to define paedophilia on the internet tend to be paedophiles, so far everyone is posting sensibly but watch out for people trying to nudge the conversation over to "why shouldn't I have sex with a 15 year old with the mental capacity to choose?" or "hey people over 12 are technically not children, there this other latin word for it..." or "i love children but don't act on it so I'm reclaiming the word!".

Any normal adult would be utterly bored by a 15 year old.

rather pathetic fallacy to attempt to debauche a debate by calling those on the other side of the argument a paedophile.

as to "why shouldn't I have sex with a 15 year old with the mental capacity to choose?" it is an important conversation to have in a debate without morons spewing stupid accusations, in which to i would say why not, its perfectly logical when dismissing irrational subjective emotions and morality.
Nymeus - 5:56 PM
I've got a picture of diakun and his dick
he can easily make people ashamed of how small they are, cause his is big
need to know anything else?

Iain Keers

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Re: Age of consent
« #17 : November 13, 2014, 07:07:52 PM »
Quote from wikipedia:

"The age of consent is the age at which a person is considered to be legally competent to consent to sexual acts, and is thus the minimum age of a person with whom another person is legally permitted to engage in sexual activity"

"In United States law, competence concerns the mental capacity of an individual to participate in legal proceedings or transactions, and the mental condition a person must have to be responsible for his or her decisions or acts."

So basically the question isn't "at what age do you become an adult" but rather "at what age do you have the mental capacity to consent to sexual acts".

At age 14 I was probably not "legally competent" to manage my finances, run a home, get a job etc. But I was capable of making decisions about something as blasé as sex.

The OP question was whether or not you could objectively name an age of consent, so saying that as a country you should just decide it doesn't answer the question, it's a circular argument.
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ApronChef

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Re: Age of consent
« #18 : November 13, 2014, 07:27:49 PM »
I personally think we don't need an age of consent.

We must make it illegal to reproduce or have sex end of, slowly kill off the human race.

Malkaiser

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Re: Age of consent
« #19 : November 13, 2014, 07:29:36 PM »
Well... I solved the law issue so no more discussion on that needed. Looks like we are taking a darker turn now:

1) I meant any older adult would be bored by a 15 year old. What I want approching 30 is totally different than what a 15 year old wants or needs. When I'm looking to buy a house/setting down into a career/family it isn't fair to basically rob a 15 year old of their carefree college/uni days. Unless you are going to hang around with their 15 year old friends lol.

2) So what if there is an attraction overlap for you? It isn't right for the young person as mentioned above. I would also add that mental capacity isn't the be all and end all, what about life experience of which they have none by definition? That old guy with money may look great at 15 but pretty shitty at 30 with several children and none of your own friends or qualifications.

3) I didn't call any of you paedophiles, I just listed the triggers which would show you who is. Pretty sure some of those got hit in the angry responces against me! Wikipedia is infested by paedophiles trying to weasel definitions changes so I wouldn't go to that to understand the spirit behind the law.

 

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