: Age of consent  ( 7279 )

Diakun

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Re: Age of consent
« #40 : November 15, 2014, 09:08:00 AM »
No idea how you come to that conclusion, anyway its not for you to decide, but the people involved in the relationship.

Worried about what? Supporting absolute liberty from the state and those who wish to dictate peoples lives.

I'm skeptical of the true intent of those who claim to be protecting children, which seems to me to be a guise for controlling people.
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Malkaiser

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Re: Age of consent
« #41 : November 15, 2014, 09:17:49 AM »
OK Diakun, give us an example of a healthy relationship in your grey area.

Diakun

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Re: Age of consent
« #42 : November 15, 2014, 09:24:04 AM »
Both parties consenting and happy being in the relationship, seems rather self evident to me

I dont see the logic in the relationship being somehow automatically abusive just because one is younger than an arbitrary age.
« : November 15, 2014, 09:27:22 AM Diakun »
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Malkaiser

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Re: Age of consent
« #43 : November 15, 2014, 09:33:28 AM »
Both parties consenting and happy being in the relationship, seems rather self evident to me

I dont see the logic in the relationship being somehow automatically abusive just because one is younger than an arbitrary age.

Which kind of ages are we talking about here? How are the people in the relationship spending time with each other?

I've clearly outlined which ages I think are appropriate and what kind of things people in these age ranges should be doing. You do the same.

Diakun

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Re: Age of consent
« #44 : November 15, 2014, 09:55:36 AM »
Its none of my business what and how they spend their time

iv allready stated consent should be able to be given when puberty occurs, then its actually based on something tangible and not just blanketed to average or subjective age
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Malkaiser

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Re: Age of consent
« #45 : November 15, 2014, 10:05:20 AM »
Its none of my business what and how they spend their time

iv allready stated consent should be able to be given when puberty occurs, then its actually based on something tangible and not just blanketed to average or subjective age
What you are doing is promoting and arguing for the rights of paedophiles and groomers, focusing your arguments on the freedoms of 10-15 year olds to choose sexual partners, you are being very vague on the age and behaviour of these older partners on purpose as to not incriminate yourself.

So if a 12 year old boy hits puberty at the youngest reasonable age, and a 30 year old family friend invites him into his house to play xbox and shows him a more exciting adult lifestyle, you are cool with him being able to consent to sex with him?

Diakun

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Re: Age of consent
« #46 : November 15, 2014, 10:25:11 AM »
Opposing any government interference in peoples lives is not supporting rights of paedophiles. Its a nonsensical destinction to make.
I do support the freedom of said ages to choose sexual partners, the premise that they are automatically predators is false.

And yes i am
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ApronChef

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Re: Age of consent
« #47 : November 15, 2014, 11:18:13 AM »
I have to agree with Diakun on the idea that any age of consent does curb and damage the freedom of a citizen in a said country.

Its definitely a do or don't issue, whichever way there will always been issues, and ultimately abuse.

How else would you determine consensual maturity?

I suppose a possible maturity test or something. (However that could be done.)

Age is obviously the easiest route as a 12 yr old can't fake their age with a 30 yr old passport etc.

You couldn't even do lie detectors to test abusive relationships; because if violence has happened it changes stuff, people are able to entirely go throw a test lying and never be caught, and mainly, it holds no power in a court. (I think that is still correct.)

Wayne

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Re: Age of consent
« #48 : November 15, 2014, 11:33:31 AM »
Dirty fucking Spanish...





Diakun

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Re: Age of consent
« #49 : November 15, 2014, 12:04:43 PM »
Although he's phrasing it wrong, I actually have to side with Goku. You can be all like "Nah man, free love, make your own choices and be free, we don't need laws" but then there is little to nil protection available for young people who are being groomed.

Ideally, a statutory rape law would exist with a defined age limit to allow the state to prosecute those who are clearly abusing people who aren't of sound mind but there would be an element of trust in that prosecution would not be taken up against 'reasonable' relationships. I'm of the belief that we do need an age of consent, I think having a law as open to interpretation as Kun suggests would lead to a lot of abuse being unprosecuted. Plenty of teenagers who have gone through puberty aren't ready to make that decision for themselves and can be taken into an abusive relationship, or at least an amount significant enough to warrant legal protection being available.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_sex_trafficking_gang

I believe that is an excellent example of predatory nature with relation to teenage victims. Like I said earlier though, choosing the actual age and deciding when prosecution is appropriate is much more difficult and better left for wiser men than me.

The current black and white laws that are in place now has led to many cases of non-abuse being prosecuted too, as the quote well known and in which is incredibly vital to the idea of justice and liberty says "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer".

people must not be presumed guilty thus flexible and interpretive laws are supportive of presumption of innocence. laws that put automatic guilt on the accused (that these sorts of laws tend to do even if unintended) and overprotection of the alledged victim are nearly allways tyrannical and end with abuse of liberty by the state.

This may well lead to children being abused that could be prevented by draconian laws but this is the price we have to pay for liberty and freedom. i dont believe in making concessions that would chip away at this in any form.
I'd like examples and citations, I know I've only provided one but it's a major case in which multiple young, pubescent people were targeted by predators. Can you provide me with factual examples of consenting relationships being prosecuted to the full extent?

Similarly who says that it's better that 10 guilty escape than 1 innocent suffer? Those 10 guilty can sure be responsible for many people suffering arguably worse conditions than prison and societal shunning.  Surely that is a problem for our penal system, that the guilty should not be made to suffer and simply rehabilitated.

well for example theres this well known case that shows the terrible problem that age of consent laws present:
http://www.worldwideweirdnews.com/2013/05/w7172.html

as for your second paragraph i dont understand it
Nymeus - 5:56 PM
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Malkaiser

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Re: Age of consent
« #50 : November 15, 2014, 02:00:13 PM »
I have to agree with Diakun on the idea that any age of consent does curb and damage the freedom of a citizen in a said country.
Murder laws also curb and damage the freedom of a citizen in a said country. Why can't I go and do what I want?

Do you seriously think that there is a 12 year old which exists who could have a healthy relationship with a 30 year old?

If a 12 year old boy hits puberty at the youngest reasonable age, and a 30 year old family friend invites him into his house to play xbox and shows him a more exciting adult lifestyle, you are cool with him being able to consent to sex with him?
Diakun are you OK with this? Yes or no? Answer the question.

Bringing up edge cases cases of 15/18 year old teenagers isn't confronting the issue of why age of consent law exist, I don't think anyone in this thread has disagreed with allowing relationships between teenagers, I myself suggested changing the law to allow these. The laws are there to stop 20+ year olds abusing and manipulating children.

Diakun

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Re: Age of consent
« #51 : November 15, 2014, 02:09:28 PM »
the idea of absolute freedom is the freedom to do anything you want that doesnt abuse the rights of others, since the freedom to abuse others freedom is self defeating thus doesnt work.

yes i do, since it would be illogical to suggest it cant be.

i allready answered yes to that, baka.
Nymeus - 5:56 PM
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Sexagenarian

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Re: Age of consent
« #52 : November 15, 2014, 02:22:04 PM »
I have to agree with Diakun on the idea that any age of consent does curb and damage the freedom of a citizen in a said country.


Freedom of the citizen? People don't come in to all their rights as a citizen until they're 18 so restricting anything below that age happens in all sorts of areas not only sexuality.

You seem to be saying that any citizen should not have their freedom curbed in any way, this leads to the situation where "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law"

Sexual freedom is no different from any other freedom allowed by society and if my freedom to murder is curtailed why not your sexual freedom to have a 'relationship'with a 12 year old? Surely abusing a 12 year old will have a much more damaging effect long term than putting a bullet through his/her head

Diakun

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Re: Age of consent
« #53 : November 15, 2014, 02:26:40 PM »
I have to agree with Diakun on the idea that any age of consent does curb and damage the freedom of a citizen in a said country.


Freedom of the citizen? People don't come in to all their rights as a citizen until they're 18 so restricting anything below that age happens in all sorts of areas not only sexuality.

You seem to be saying that any citizen should not have their freedom curbed in any way, this leads to the situation where "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law"

Sexual freedom is no different from any other freedom allowed by society and if my freedom to murder is curtailed why not your sexual freedom to have a 'relationship'with a 12 year old? Surely abusing a 12 year old will have a much more damaging effect long term than putting a bullet through his/her head


the idea of absolute freedom is the freedom to do anything you want that doesnt abuse the rights of others, since the freedom to abuse others freedom is self defeating thus doesnt work (paradox).
Nymeus - 5:56 PM
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Malkaiser

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Re: Age of consent
« #54 : November 15, 2014, 06:56:26 PM »
So a 20+ year old manipulating a 12 year old into sex, something they know nothing about, isn't abusing the rights of anyone!?

Diakun is there actually anything about paedophillia which you don't agree with?

Diakun

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Re: Age of consent
« #55 : November 15, 2014, 07:08:01 PM »
So a 20+ year old manipulating a 12 year old into sex, something they know nothing about, isn't abusing the rights of anyone!?

Diakun is there actually anything about paedophillia which you don't agree with?

baka doesnt listen, its false to assume there is manipulation, thus there is no abuse of rights untill its proven there is manipulation. Of course they wont know about it if they havent done it before.

Goku is there actually anything about authoritarianism which you don't agree with?
Nymeus - 5:56 PM
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Malkaiser

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Re: Age of consent
« #56 : November 15, 2014, 07:20:07 PM »
Er... I don't agree with lots of authoritarian things, freedom of speech and movement for a starters. If protecting children makes me authoritarian then so be it.

There is manipulation inherent in this because one is an inexperienced child and one is an experienced adult.

Anyway... 99% of the people in the western world agree with me so you are going to have to argue your case better Diakun if you want to start having sex with children.

Diakun

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Re: Age of consent
« #57 : November 15, 2014, 07:36:43 PM »
i dont care for consensus or public opinion, which btw is an incredibly shitty, poor and fallacious argument to make. my own opinion is enough for me.

different amount of experience or lack there of is no logical link to inherent manipulation.

you dont actually care about protecting children, you just falsely think you know what is best for others and thus want to dictate how they should live

Nymeus - 5:56 PM
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BaskB

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Re: Age of consent
« #58 : November 15, 2014, 07:59:14 PM »
Very interesting debate this one (And BTW that Spanish age one is scary....)

My opinion is that I feel an age law is appropriate for a matter like this, however what really gets my goat up about the UK in particular (perhaps Europe wide is the same never really looked into it) is why we have different ages for everything... So I could have "Legal" sex at 16, Couldn't drive till I was 17, Couldn't vote till 18 or Drink till 18, oh but I can smoke at 16, Buy a Lottery ticket at 16...and give my own medical consent at 16, oh but cant give blood till 17! Here's an idea make it one flowering age!

Ok back to the thread in point, I think I'm more on the Goku's side in this one, the 16 rule is a little grey when it falls to a 16 yr old & 15 yr old and allowances should be made for that and of course if 2 pre 16 teens feel they are capable of making this decision then by all means go ahead. The "No" go area and where the law should apply from perhaps is that once you turn 18 it is THEN illegal for any 18+ person to lawfully engage in activity with an under 16 as that is when the age gap becomes more obvious. And as Goku put it, imo I see no reason a 20+ year old would have those sort of feelings for an KNOWN under 16 anyway.

Now of course on the slight devils advocate, we've all been out on nights out and I can count numerous/hundreds of times I've seen people of a YOUNG age in Night Clubs etc. (some are obvious to tell they are under 16, others perhaps not so, my best friend back home could pass as an 18 year old easy from the age of 14) if they then lie about thier age at the time, how does that fit in with said law?
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Malkaiser

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Re: Age of consent
« #59 : November 15, 2014, 08:17:48 PM »
Bask: It's about intent.

If a 14 year old dresses themselves up to look 18 to get into a club and tricks not only you, but the bouncers and bar staff, then they consent to sex... I don't really see how this is your fault as long as you break it off when you find out. This should probably be in law somewhere so you can report it happening, as people can get blackmailed or stories can change out of spite if you dump them.

If a 14 year old dresses themselves up or has developed quickly and they look attractive to you because they are male/female shaped but you know their age - there may not be much wrong with that - what would be wrong would be then acting on this knowing that at the stage of their life they are at they are vulnerable and not emotionally mature or experienced enough to be the partner you want and you would be harming their development by doing it.


Diakun: I'm not saying that you are wrong because everyone agrees with me, I see that you only recognise logical fallacies when they are you your benefit! You are wrong because of the arguments I keep presenting, I'm just pointing out that if your side of the argument is such a small percentage of the population and most of them are in prison for abusing children, you may want to think twice about why your views are so commonly held to be monstrous.

 

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