Author Topic: Defending property  (Read 3896 times)

Iain Keers

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Defending property
« on: November 24, 2014, 08:42:30 pm »
So first of all a little story for you lot.

When I was at university, my house all went out for drinks. One guy came home earlier, went in the house and went upstairs to his room. He left the door unlocked. Some guy came in and took a couple laptops that were in the living room downstairs, one was mine. Being robbed sucked- I got fucked on the insurance covering the first £150 or whatever, and obviously I had to wait for that to come through during which time I had to go buy another computer. Fortunately it was backed up so I didn't lose my uni work, but the other person lost 2 essays they were working on (I think, hard to remember exact details). Anyway, of course the police did jack shit because there's not much they can do, and they were never found. Apparently the likely scenario is the thief was a drug addict, probably homeless. He/She took the laptop, sold it to a fence for probably £40 who then sold it on in another city for maybe £100-£150, possibly even to a legitimate company like CEX or whatever. Anyway it sucked.

Now if my friend had come downstairs and the guy had still been there, would my friend have been entitled to defend his property? Obviously in MURICA they shoot people for walking on their lawn, but this thief was basically fucking our lives up. Should my friend have just rang the police from a  position of safety or should he have been allowed to clock the guy with a baseball bat to protect his property?

(as a disclaimer, my friend is a total pacifist and would never hit anyone even in self defence, it's just a scenario)

Discuss.
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

paultyndale

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2014, 08:57:48 pm »
1. Can you claim on the insurance if you've failed to secure the premises and therefore there is no sign of forced entry?

2. Not only is there in excess but increased premiums, meaning I would always recommend against making a claim for small losses.

3. Shoot first, ask questions later or if you are in UK defend your property against the criminal - they claim against you for mental anguish or some other rubbish and YOU end up in prison.

Maybe we need a 'stand your ground law' law in this country - an Englishman's home is his castle and I think you should have every right to defend your own home.




RodneyMcKay

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2014, 08:59:57 pm »
I think it comes down to appropriate force and if you think your life is worth the cost of a laptop/whatever they want to rob, and maybe leaving it to the police is okay in most cases.

On the other hand if an someone came into my house and attempted to hurt a member of my family, I would most defiantly react accordingly. 


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Diakun

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2014, 09:38:21 pm »
if someone invades your property you should be able to do whatever is needed to get them out and stop them taking stuff, even kill them although only if they are a direct threat to your life. In most cases police cannot stop or prevent crime, just punish it.

Bonus: i love the news stories where burglars are held as sex slaves, while that is illegal since its not self defence its immensly hilarious.
Nymeus - 5:56 PM
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Iain Keers

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2014, 10:09:11 pm »
I had specific insurance to cover laptops, it's not location specific cos obviously people take laptops everywhere. It actually covered loss, theft, accidental damage, etc etc.
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

judeconnors

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2014, 11:25:47 pm »
As an American, I say clock the bastard.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2014, 11:40:33 am »
serves you right for not installing a pitfall trap
<Guitah> not arguing with a Brit about tea is tha sensible thing to do :)
<Appleby> it is common knowledge it is pointless arguing with an addict :p
<Appleby> thus it is pointless arguing about tea with brits



Wayne

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2014, 12:07:17 pm »
Depends how big the bastard is. 





Diakun

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2014, 12:10:27 pm »
Depends how big the bastard is. 
spear would still win
Nymeus - 5:56 PM
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Darkmantle

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2014, 01:33:32 pm »
Pretty sure that in the UK you can use the reasonable force defence, but that's so damn subjective that using it is basically at your own risk.

Personally I'd have called the police and at least tried to stop the guy from leaving. If that meant hitting the bastard then so be it, but usually catching them at it will make them run anyway.

Iain Keers

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2014, 01:45:23 pm »
In the UK you can use reasonable force to defend yourself, so if for example you came downstairs and they waved a knife at you, you'd probably be OK whacking them. But if they were unarmed and you attacked them, then basically you'd be committing a crime.
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

Diakun

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2014, 01:57:05 pm »
In the UK you can use reasonable force to defend yourself, so if for example you came downstairs and they waved a knife at you, you'd probably be OK whacking them. But if they were unarmed and you attacked them, then basically you'd be committing a crime.

if they invade your house i would consider that an attack on oneself, and think it justifiable to whack them round the head with the nearest heavy object.

They have invaded your house and if unarmed you arent allowed to touch them or its a crime? i dont think thats a good idea at all, and i feel a court would most likely be in your favour for doing anything short of killing them.


Nymeus - 5:56 PM
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Iain Keers

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2014, 02:05:46 pm »
The Law as far as I know says that if you attack an intruder that's a separate crime to them breaking into your house. So they would be charged with breaking and entry, and burglary if they have actually taken stuff. You'd be charged with GBH which is a more serious crime, though you'd probably be able to argue self defence or something, you'd still get a criminal record.
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

Diakun

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2014, 02:58:39 pm »
The Law as far as I know says that if you attack an intruder that's a separate crime to them breaking into your house. So they would be charged with breaking and entry, and burglary if they have actually taken stuff. You'd be charged with GBH which is a more serious crime, though you'd probably be able to argue self defence or something, you'd still get a criminal record.
if the law is such it seems like utter nonsense to me. even so iv seen many tv programmes that show people attacking burglars and chasing em with a knife ect, i dont believe any of them were charged with anything.
Nymeus - 5:56 PM
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ApronChef

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2014, 03:01:26 pm »
I think you should be able to use anything to defend your home, however, it should be law that you cannot kill them, but harm them enough so they can't do shit.

That way they'll still get arrested and punished further.


Sexagenarian

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2014, 03:43:11 pm »
By stealing from you they have broken the law which should place them outside of the law's protection so I agree with

As an American, I say clock the bastard.

However looking at what has happened in the UK over the years you're more likely to go to jail than the thief if you do defend your property

Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2014, 03:50:53 pm »
By stealing from you they have broken the law which should place them outside of the law's protection

That's nonsense.

As to the topic it's about reasonable level of force and that it's necessary. If you hit someone over the head with a cricket bat who's walking out your front door with your tv then it's not self-defence or in reaction to a real or believed threat to you or others, so you'd be on very dangerous legal ground. If he had a weapon, was threatening you or you were vulnerable in some way then you almost certainly wouldn't be.

It does depend on the severity, though, if you get into an altercation with the guy and he's unarmed and startled and you punch him and then he runs away you would be very unlikely to be prosecuted because it's not excessive or grossly disproportionate. If you shot him with a gun or knocked him unconscious with a lamp or something then it would be, because that would be doing GBH to someone basically in revenge for them doing burglary to you.

Committing a crime in revenge is not legal, and property is not an extension of your person.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 03:53:45 pm by Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar »
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Iain Keers

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2014, 04:30:39 pm »
Yeh the distress act is the oldest UK law, and without the flowery language basically says if you have an issue with someone, you have to take them to court, you can't just stab them or whatever. So if someone robbed you, you're not allowed to settle it yourself in a dual, you have to take them to court.
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

Diakun

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2014, 04:31:21 pm »
By stealing from you they have broken the law which should place them outside of the law's protection

That's nonsense.

As to the topic it's about reasonable level of force and that it's necessary. If you hit someone over the head with a cricket bat who's walking out your front door with your tv then it's not self-defence or in reaction to a real or believed threat to you or others, so you'd be on very dangerous legal ground. If he had a weapon, was threatening you or you were vulnerable in some way then you almost certainly wouldn't be.

It does depend on the severity, though, if you get into an altercation with the guy and he's unarmed and startled and you punch him and then he runs away you would be very unlikely to be prosecuted because it's not excessive or grossly disproportionate. If you shot him with a gun or knocked him unconscious with a lamp or something then it would be, because that would be doing GBH to someone basically in revenge for them doing burglary to you.

Committing a crime in revenge is not legal, and property is not an extension of your person.

many victims of burglary say they feel its like they have been personally attacked and violated by such an invasion. home is a personal sanctuary and i would regard it as an extension, as well as my stuff such as my pc which is my life. and they will not have it unless they can escape from my stabby attempts
Nymeus - 5:56 PM
I've got a picture of diakun and his dick
he can easily make people ashamed of how small they are, cause his is big
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Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar

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Re: Defending property
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2014, 04:39:13 pm »
many victims of burglary say they feel its like they have been personally attacked and violated by such an invasion. home is a personal sanctuary and i would regard it as an extension, as well as my stuff such as my pc which is my life. and they will not have it unless they can escape from my stabby attempts

Yeah, and that's why the law is often harsh on burglaries and such, because it crosses over into privacy issues.

Unless they're doing anything to threaten you (your person) then aren't able to just attack them, though. You can restrain them (or attempt to), and if there's physical resistance you can act proportionately, but as I said it comes down to two things: necessity and proportion.

Otherwise all it is is breaking the law to get revenge for someone breaking the law, which if allowed would create a ludicrous legal system.
HRH Pope Digby V, Prince of Hanover, KC, KG, KP, GBE, OGS, FRSL, BGD, PhD
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