: congrats tories  ( 6386 )

Malkaiser

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Re: congrats tories
« #40 : January 18, 2015, 09:22:18 PM »
You heard it here first: Dan Moir doesn't belive in small parties being able to ever become large and therefore doesn't belive in WW2 and is therefore a holocaust denier.

I can't wait to vote for the Saxonist Mercians  at Witenagemot this turn.

Another arguement lost, better get in the mods to lock it after Iain strawmans in his last word :)

Dan Moir

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Re: congrats tories
« #41 : January 18, 2015, 09:40:57 PM »
I'm just a realist rather than a fantasist.  I don't even think you believe the shit that you're shovelling.  You just have some kind of mental condition that forces you to argue against pretty much anything that anyone else ever says.

You should see a doctor and ask them if you have oppositional defiant disorder.  Maybe it's not too late and they can help you.

Malkaiser

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Re: congrats tories
« #42 : January 18, 2015, 11:09:09 PM »
Am I displaying that trait or you and Iain? Just who has the extreme position here?

I'm not saying anything crazy, the rise of the small parties is all over every politics tv show and newspaper article.
« : January 18, 2015, 11:12:16 PM Malkaiser »

Iain Keers

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Re: congrats tories
« #43 : January 18, 2015, 11:26:56 PM »
Nazis operated in a PR system. Once they got 5% of the vote they had representatives and could start becoming more influential. Here you have to win at least 30-35% of voters over in a constituency to win, that's assuming the remainder are split 3 ways. Greens don't manage anywhere near that. I remember campaigning in a seat in London, labour and conservative both had teams of 30+ people working day in day out campaigning. Greens had the candidate and his wife and that's it. They don't have the electoral machinery.

What's more, is it really desirable to vote for "libdems mk2". Greens have no idea what they'd actually do if they won. They're only popular now because labour is unfashionable, they've got no actual experience of doing stuff. Anyway, it's all irrelevant because they'll be lucky to win one seat.
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

Malkaiser

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Re: congrats tories
« #44 : January 18, 2015, 11:48:43 PM »
What do you think about Labour's current direction Iain?

I mean is it "unfashionable" or "total lack of vision, leadership or competence"? Ed Milliband lied on TV last week with his weaponisation of the NHS stuff, if you don't say "yes" or "no" then the answer is generally "liar".

Diakun

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Re: congrats tories
« #45 : January 19, 2015, 12:05:45 AM »
ed has no conviction or chance of winning
cameron is a smug fascist silly cabbage
farage a more extreme version of above
clegg is a two faced spineless git

ed's only saving grace is i somehow admire his dorkyness
Nymeus - 5:56 PM
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Iain Keers

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Re: congrats tories
« #46 : January 19, 2015, 09:52:52 AM »
Labour is currently doing a watered down version of new labour to try and pacify the unions who voted Ed into power without losing all the middle class gains they got in the 90s. Still I bet they have a lot more working class voters than the greens do, who are the party of middle class guilt.

Cameron isn't fascist, he's probably the least right wing tory leader since the 60s. LibDems will get rekt outside of their traditional celtic fringe heartland.
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

ApronChef

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Re: congrats tories
« #47 : January 19, 2015, 10:28:53 AM »
The Green party always votes to increase their pay slip whenever the vote arises, so I don't trust them one bit.

Personally, I don't even like any of them, I usually promote/vote for the party which shall cause the most radical upset to the political scene.

EDIT: Cameron claimed to be a more extreme thatcher, he is a soft incapable dipshit, his political achievements are less than anyone in the world.

Butjam

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Re: congrats tories
« #48 : January 19, 2015, 12:39:10 PM »
Yes, small local governments that ignore the edicts of a larger organisational base works really well. I'm sure 2nd and 3rd century China would agree with you there...
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Diakun

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Re: congrats tories
« #49 : January 19, 2015, 04:03:23 PM »
>implying i would know anything about ancient chinese history -_-

you guys never bother to explain anything
« : January 19, 2015, 04:11:08 PM Diakun »
Nymeus - 5:56 PM
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Butjam

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Re: congrats tories
« #50 : January 19, 2015, 04:56:50 PM »
At the decline of the Han, nobody gave any real attention the what the Emperor or the Imperial Court decreed, opting to go it alone. It didn't work, because every self governing peasant was subservient to a master with a bigger stick, who was subservient to another master with a bigger stick. So on and so forth, the nation was pretty much awful and basically run by corrupt dickheads. When the three nation states formed, life actually improved for the common people because there was some semblance of an organised governance. When the Jin dynasty took over, finally, things were even better.

The interstitial period was just shit, basically, with people fighting for power constantly. There's a reason the treasures that come from that period pretty much all relate to warfare, besides a few Taoist and Confucian scholarly works.

Globalisation is the preferred method, with devolved control over things such as taxation and public service. Bigger organisations are, generally, more efficient if run by competent people
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Diakun

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Re: congrats tories
« #51 : January 19, 2015, 07:39:20 PM »
that was ancient times which only knew of hereditary and absolute rule.

i know not of one place based on the teachings of the enlightenment, reason and constitutional democratic rule that has turned to chaos and strife.

whereas there are many strong centralised national governments which have.
« : January 19, 2015, 07:40:51 PM Diakun »
Nymeus - 5:56 PM
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ApronChef

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Re: congrats tories
« #52 : January 19, 2015, 07:48:01 PM »
that was ancient times which only knew of hereditary and absolute rule.

i know not of one place based on the teachings of the enlightenment, reason and constitutional democratic rule that has turned to chaos and strife.

whereas there are many strong centralised national governments which have.

In all honesty, democracy is chaos, its just controlled enough to show an appearance of success.

Also, Germany elected a leader and started a world war. Russia elected a anti human moron and is now falling into the dark ages. The UK started a giant empire with a democratic government running the show near the end and resulted in the crumbling of one of the largest empires ever and the bankruptcy and death of millions at the start, during and at the end.

Truthfully, the majority of the nations that have either fell apart or resulted in total and utter chaos were nations that claimed to have reason. (And most of them were democracies too, so basically, we like to elect killers.)

Diakun

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Re: congrats tories
« #53 : January 19, 2015, 09:24:49 PM »
the ideas of the enlightment such as self government, focus on reason and evidence, natural rights of man, limitations of government and seperation of church and state had never been done before in history untill the founders of america enshrined it into a constitution (give or take afew big unfortunate flower ups).

the examples you have given of leaders and injustices are due to people and ideas whos actions are against what the philosophies proposed.
Nymeus - 5:56 PM
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Butjam

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Re: congrats tories
« #54 : January 19, 2015, 11:52:02 PM »
Well gee, you mean in sample sizes of millions, there's always been at least one driven and competent sociopath? That's pretty unexpected for sure...
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ApronChef

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Re: congrats tories
« #55 : January 19, 2015, 11:54:15 PM »
the ideas of the enlightment such as self government, focus on reason and evidence, natural rights of man, limitations of government and seperation of church and state had never been done before in history untill the founders of america enshrined it into a constitution (give or take afew big unfortunate flower ups).

the examples you have given of leaders and injustices are due to people and ideas whos actions are against what the philosophies proposed.

Well no, democracy is purely power to the people and if they want a crazed person they shall get it.

Plus, Hitler was voted for reason, germany was in ruins economy was poor and he offered a solution, granted it was rather inhuman, but it was a reason and most of his 'policies' had a lot of evidence to back them up. e.g. the requirement for Germany to spread its wings to compete with the growing world.

Secondly, USA may have a constitution deeming church and state cannot be combined, yet the people regularly discard that and proceed with church and state things on a daily basis. Also the USA was the first modern state to introduce a well known constitution giving certain stuff a proper name, but they were not the first to do anything like that. The Inca for example absorbed cultures into their empire instead of replacing cultures, a system that worked so well they were the one of the largest empires in south Americas history.

The problem I see with you saying; "i know not of one place based on the teachings of the enlightenment, reason and constitutional democratic rule that has turned to chaos and strife.", is that it is just not true.

Also, Enlightenment in theory has been happening since humans existed (Years ago it was care for yourself and others, as it was mutually beneficial, ancient settlements etc.), it only got its name when a bunch of EUROPEANS renown for Monarchies etc, sat down and went, we should totes challenge the church and install a scientific foundation for us to build from. All it done was let down the gates for people to discuss things freely, which well before this time was totally acceptable in a lot of places, e.g. Greece, Natives of Africa, and even people of south america, especially the inca who had to continually convince cultures to remain a part of the empire with gifts and constant food and water even though its one of the harshest places on the planet.

In conclusion, its all nametags, we've been in a continuous flux of acceptance/tolerance and intolerance/hatred. We just like to name things and then say oh this is something new, we've never done this before, yet we have many times.

ApronChef

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Re: congrats tories
« #56 : January 19, 2015, 11:55:10 PM »
Well gee, you mean in sample sizes of millions, there's always been at least one driven and competent sociopath? That's pretty unexpected for sure...

Psychopath's make good leaders, they can make the hard decisions.

Diakun

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Re: congrats tories
« #57 : January 20, 2015, 12:31:45 AM »
the only legitimate role of government is to ensure life, liberty and the persuit of happiness to those it governs, to achieve this all that needs to be done is stop people preventing others from doing the same. (the right of the individual to govern himself is absolute, anything otherwise is only when it concerns others).

any leader who ignores limitations of government enshrined in a constitution to anything other than the above is injust and illegitimate and must therefore be removed by the people. they being voted in by the people in the first place is irrelevant.

in regards to the inca, "join our empire or we will slaughter all of your people" and those ancient empires ruled by religion is hardly enlightenment philosophies or reason is it.

the whole idea of american declaration of independance was a rebuttal of monarchy and religious rule.
Nymeus - 5:56 PM
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ApronChef

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Re: congrats tories
« #58 : January 20, 2015, 09:04:10 AM »
the only legitimate role of government is to ensure life, liberty and the persuit of happiness to those it governs, to achieve this all that needs to be done is stop people preventing others from doing the same. (the right of the individual to govern himself is absolute, anything otherwise is only when it concerns others).

any leader who ignores limitations of government enshrined in a constitution to anything other than the above is injust and illegitimate and must therefore be removed by the people. they being voted in by the people in the first place is irrelevant.

in regards to the inca, "join our empire or we will slaughter all of your people" and those ancient empires ruled by religion is hardly enlightenment philosophies or reason is it.

the whole idea of american declaration of independance was a rebuttal of monarchy and religious rule.


What about the flaws? USA 'leaders' continuously use the loop holes etc, are they in the right then?

Plus, in theory the USA has a religious element, but not in the belief of god, even tho its a very religious group of territories. It has been the land were serious racist and extreme cultist activity, most renown the KKK and white supremacy.

Truthfully, isn't that what you propose tho, everyones happy but if you're making people unhappy, you get punished, that it was the inca did.

We haven't progressed too much in political terms, we've just spent too much time giving everything a individual name and act like its brand new, we're just doing what the past did on a larger scale.

Also, what about the Roman Empire? They had religion, yet it was a fractured un-centred religion that was a belief in many gods, and lived generally happy lives, they removed what they saw as an uncivilised place as a required expansion to bring civilisation and 'happiness' to others.

Basically, what I am trying to say is, how does the happiness of the many, even if it is wrong cruel, murderous etc, trump that of the few who may believe in harmony.

What you're basically saying is if 3 people live in a country, if 2 people want the third raped and dead, and as its a majority, it must be for the good for the overall happiness. Also such things are entrenched like being happy is the ultimate goal of government, so therefore its fine to rape and kill the third one, no?
« : January 20, 2015, 09:05:41 AM ApronChef »

Butjam

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Re: congrats tories
« #59 : January 20, 2015, 09:14:44 AM »
I just don't understand how people think we're better off without public spending of any kind.

Theory: Kun likes leather, wants to create a Mad Max style desolate wasteland so he can get some leather lovin'.
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