Author Topic: The Venus Project  (Read 2785 times)

The Venus Project
« on: March 17, 2011, 06:55:38 pm »



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johnoboy

  • Posts: 38
Re: The Venus Project
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2011, 07:20:23 pm »
Looks like eRepublik but shitter.

ReadyMade

  • Posts: 200
Re: The Venus Project
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2011, 07:23:55 pm »
NOTHX.

The B

  • Posts: 2323
Re: The Venus Project
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2011, 07:37:01 pm »
Could be interesting, but a lot of their buildings look rubbish.
The B, Knight of Spamalot

Blaggard

  • Posts: 4870
Re: The Venus Project
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2011, 07:38:01 pm »
If only it wasn't so pie in the sky about stuff.

Tomaz

  • Posts: 8557
Re: The Venus Project
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2011, 07:56:53 pm »
I read the entire FAQ

-It seems to be science written by people who don't understand science

-Extremely vague on issues such as governance and education

-Boring existence would be boring

-Actively advocating handing over decision-making to machines and self-obsoleting ourselves

They say things like "education will do X", but who is going to be a teacher? When you have everything you need, why do anything? We are not altruistic by nature.

Re: The Venus Project
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2011, 07:58:38 pm »
Do you honestly believe the majority of human beings, if given the choice, would waste their entire lives (i.e. by playing video games)? I know I wouldn't.



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ReadyMade

  • Posts: 200
Re: The Venus Project
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2011, 08:06:04 pm »
Quote from: "Asher Di Immortales"
Do you honestly believe the majority of human beings, if given the choice, would waste their entire lives (i.e. by playing video games)? I know I wouldn't.

Playing video games?

Yes.

Skalg von Tuari

  • Posts: 841
Re: The Venus Project
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2011, 08:08:57 pm »
Quote from: "Asher Di Immortales"
Do you honestly believe the majority of human beings, if given the choice, would waste their entire lives (i.e. by playing video games)? I know I wouldn't.

Not their entire life, that's what school is for.


Economic Left/Right: -5.88
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<jamesw>   You are the best citizenship i ever had!!11

Re: The Venus Project
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2011, 08:12:15 pm »
Quote from: "Tomaz"
I read the entire FAQ

-It seems to be science written by people who don't understand science

-Extremely vague on issues such as governance and education

-Boring existence would be boring

-Actively advocating handing over decision-making to machines and self-obsoleting ourselves

They say things like "education will do X", but who is going to be a teacher? When you have everything you need, why do anything? We are not altruistic by nature.

I think that handing over decisions that can be decided objectively (such as whether a new coal mine should be opened) should be handed over to machines in order to escape the inevitable political motives that we have when they're decided by politicians (NIMBY and all that). As for your example of a teacher, good teachers don't go into the profession primarily for money, and if given the choice many of the best would do it anyway (as we see from the numbers of people that don't want to retire at 65 or who work part-time into their old age). In fact I think these kinds of professions would be better off removed from the whole profit motive idea.



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Tomaz

  • Posts: 8557
Re: The Venus Project
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2011, 08:14:08 pm »
To us, value is merely the amount of time and effort invested in something.

It would get to the point where people would be going to great lengths to be able to do manual labour. This reminds me of a book I read. It was a fantasy novel, and it had a nations in which the occupants were magical. They had the power to do everything they needed with a flick of a wrist, but they eventually and inevitably chose not to. So yes, people would still do things like teaching. But there would be no reason to do it well, or to do it often. "sorry kids, I have to go home and play guitar for 3 weeks"

Another thing; they advocate a cybernetic decision system. This would have to be programmed by people; they would be the de-facto technocrats. What about 100 years afterwards? We would get a situation where nobody knows how to fix the bloody thing.

Re: The Venus Project
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2011, 08:20:44 pm »
If the world around you was centred on machines' labour, would you not endeavour to find out exactly how they worked?



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Tomaz

  • Posts: 8557
Re: The Venus Project
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2011, 08:21:44 pm »
Not if I was genetically incapable.

Re: The Venus Project
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2011, 08:26:48 pm »
I think the majority of the people are genetically capable of some level of study into a subject that they're interested in. Obviously the education system would change from one being based around giving qualifications to gain employment to one intended to give people a wide range of interests and ideas to explore. The human brain of even a 'stupid' person is far more complex than any computer we could hope to create, the fact that only 1% of it is utilised when people are forced to perform manual labour for a living is tragic.



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Tomaz

  • Posts: 8557
Re: The Venus Project
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2011, 08:38:02 pm »
I would agree with that. As long as there is some definite progress being made; as in we don't simply get comfortable and then dependent on this way of life, it could work. We would have to move towards space exploration or other avenues of expansion/research.

Another technical issue here is resource management. They say that everyone will be able to request what they need from this mainframe-type thing. What if I need 16 kilotons of carbon? Not everyone can have 16 kilotons of carbon. What if I want to make a motherfucking nuclear bomb and blow the shit out of everyone? With no law, no deterrent, no punishment, you can see what I mean here. Nobody has the authority in this situation to tell anyone else what not to do.

Re: The Venus Project
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2011, 08:57:43 pm »
That's one of the strongest arguments against the project. The only response I can see that he gives is that production potential would be increased so drastically that everybody would be able to have everything they want, but obviously there are limits like you give. The easiest solution would be to create a catalogue of goods that everyone can order, maybe compiled by computers in accordance with what it's possible to produce, with regular reviews by humans. Alternatively, each person could perhaps be issued with a certain amount of resource-allocation, updated continuously by computers as population changes/more resources become available, that would prevent them ordering massive amounts. However, effort would need to be taken to keep this resource-allocation solely within the computer system to stop it turning into a new system of money. Another problem is that placing limits on what people can order seems to be going against the basic principle of the project, but perhaps it would be a necessary evil.



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Blaggard

  • Posts: 4870
Re: The Venus Project
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2011, 09:26:52 pm »
how would it be going against the basic principle?

How I understand it if you wanted to create something you'd draw up plans and designs with reasons why. This would be submitted to the central system and checked to see if it would be good.  
If you wanted to do something that requires you needing to order stuff you'd want to have a reason which can be justified.  EG, if you wanted to play golf you could request golf clubs.  If you wanted to keep them sure, but you're a silly cabbage because you've just made up waste resources.  *Shun*

Re: The Venus Project
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2011, 09:31:35 pm »
It limits what people can buy in a similar way to money; it would be punishing the majority for the potential trouble caused by a minority. I feel this goes against the 'freedom' aspect of the Project, but maybe that's just me.



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Re: The Venus Project
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2011, 09:36:38 pm »
Quote from: "Blaggard"
how would it be going against the basic principle?

How I understand it if you wanted to create something you'd draw up plans and designs with reasons why. This would be submitted to the central system and checked to see if it would be good.  
If you wanted to do something that requires you needing to order stuff you'd want to have a reason which can be justified.  EG, if you wanted to play golf you could request golf clubs.  If you wanted to keep them sure, but you're a silly cabbage because you've just made up waste resources.  *Shun*

Without going into the technicalities (which is very difficult), I think many products could be designed in the same way that mods for computer games are designed currently, namely by groups of talented, interested people who work with each other well. Due to the massively increased pool of potential, this system of operating could be expanded to include the design of pretty much every product that requires innovation. In terms of resources, resources are only needed when the product is actually constructed. There's no reason why all of the blueprints for these products couldn't be uploaded to the computer system for people to download & 'pay for' with their own resource allocations if they wanted them. No waste by producing more than is needed, and I think innovation would improve too.



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Blaggard

  • Posts: 4870
Re: The Venus Project
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2011, 09:55:11 pm »
B'ah, laptop crashed.  Had a good reply written out as well :(
Quote from: "Asher Di Immortales"
It limits what people can buy in a similar way to money; it would be punishing the majority for the potential trouble caused by a minority. I feel this goes against the 'freedom' aspect of the Project, but maybe that's just me.

The freedom aspect of the Venus Project is only freedom if everyone wants to be within a empathetic society.  It hopes to brainwash people into believing they are free whilst demanding that they put others in front of themselves.  It asks us to go against our nature and to be better than what we are which is, whilst noble, is impossible unless you are to take away the rights and/life of a huge amount of people who would just abuse the empathy of others.  

Quote from: "Asher Di Immortales"
Quote from: "Blaggard"
how would it be going against the basic principle?

How I understand it if you wanted to create something you'd draw up plans and designs with reasons why. This would be submitted to the central system and checked to see if it would be good.  
If you wanted to do something that requires you needing to order stuff you'd want to have a reason which can be justified.  EG, if you wanted to play golf you could request golf clubs.  If you wanted to keep them sure, but you're a silly cabbage because you've just made up waste resources.  *Shun*

Without going into the technicalities (which is very difficult), I think many products could be designed in the same way that mods for computer games are designed currently, namely by groups of talented, interested people who work with each other well. Due to the massively increased pool of potential, this system of operating could be expanded to include the design of pretty much every product that requires innovation. In terms of resources, resources are only needed when the product is actually constructed. There's no reason why all of the blueprints for these products couldn't be uploaded to the computer system for people to download & 'pay for' with their own resource allocations if they wanted them. No waste by producing more than is needed, and I think innovation would improve too.

I know all that, I was just simplifying it for discussion because you still hadn't addressed the basic principle thing.  The basic principle is to create an empathetic society whilst attempting to address how it could be accomplished.  
I saw no mention of paying for anything at all, allocations or not, mentioned anywhere in any of their works :/

 

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