Author Topic: Is there an after life?  (Read 6151 times)

widdows9000

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Re: Is there an after life?
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2009, 04:31:30 pm »
Quote from: "rastari"
Quote from: "widdows9000"
Well as far as I'm aware no scientific experiment has found or established the existence of an ethereal, metaphysical substance - i.e the soul, in people.
science is not fact, it is opinion with a white coat put on top of it.

I would disagree with that, some scientific papers are blatantly just that with circumstantial and biased evidence to present 'facts' but there are some things science have proved beyond doubt to be 'fact'.
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rastari

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Re: Is there an after life?
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2009, 04:40:30 pm »
in the same way that miasma was fact
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count drakula

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Re: Is there an after life?
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2009, 04:40:44 pm »
Quote from: "widdows9000"
I would disagree with that, some scientific papers are blatantly just that with circumstantial and biased evidence to present 'facts' but there are some things science have proved beyond doubt to be 'fact'.

The defition of facts are:
Generally, a fact is defined as something that is true, something that actually exists, or something having objective reality that can be verified according to an established standard of evaluation.
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Will Salmon

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Re: Is there an after life?
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2009, 05:40:32 pm »
I can conclusively answer this: Yes there is an after life.

How do I know?

I've been there. So I know. The afterlife has Wi-Fi.
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John Forseti

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Re: Is there an after life?
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2009, 05:52:03 pm »
Quote from: "rastari"
in the same way that miasma was fact

Indeed, real scientists will never try to hide the fact that what we now regard as fact could change given new discoveries and new evidence. Miasmas were the best explanation people could give based on the evidence available to them, when that evidence expanded a new theory replaced it.

That's why it's more than opinion, it's based on evidence and experimentation.

Draaglom

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Re: Is there an after life?
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2009, 06:55:41 pm »
Afterlife in the conventional sense: no, it is illogical as said near the start of the topic. And while there may be little to no evidence to either side, logic dictates that you assume nonexistence rather than existence. Otherwise I could perfectly well claim that there exists all kinds of intangible fauna and suchlike.

Anyway, death is nothing to be scared of, for one it is inevitable and thus fear of the state is futile, and for two you won't notice.
It's the dying you've got to be afraid of. And that is a healthy fear.

But, as all times coexist you are still 'alive' in a different sense, just your 'perspective in time' is at a point where you aren't. Everything that ever has or will exist does so 'now', to be confusing in my choice of words.

As to Pascal's Wager - to paraphrase Pratchett, it is likely that in the event of the wager being successful, the gods would be waiting with big sticks ready to beat the smartass who thought (s)he'd beat the system by playing on the possibilities rather than actually making the decision.
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Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar

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Re: Is there an after life?
« Reply #46 on: January 06, 2009, 07:19:38 pm »
Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

That's all I'll say, because this is entirely based upon opinion. That goes both ways.
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Draaglom

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Re: Is there an after life?
« Reply #47 on: January 06, 2009, 08:14:04 pm »
Quote from: "Digby Chicken-Caesar"
Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

That's all I'll say, because this is entirely based upon opinion. That goes both ways.
As I *just said*, it is illogical to assume things exist without evidence. Probability wise, for example, you're much more likely to be correct assuming that things don't exist. There can be up to an infinite number of intangible unprovable things potentially in existence, and while I agree it's possible that some - many - most *could* exist, as you approach infinity 'unprovable truths' it becomes, obviously, more and more unlikely. And, if and when the number of 'unprovable truths' is less than infinite, assuming that they all don't exist gives you more right answers than wrong answers. You get the ones that do exist wrong, but you are right about the infinite number of 'unprovables' that are false. And if you assume the inverse and say that one inprovable is true, you logically have to make the same assumptions for the other inprovables. And so you are right about any evidence-free ideas that happen to be true, but wrong about all the potentially limitless ones that aren't.

The clearer mathematical version:
Code: [Select]
1. It is possible to create any number of evidence-less theories. There is a potentially infinite set of ideas and variations on ideas one could create.
2. We will label these:
T1,T2,T3,T4,T5,T6.......T∞
3. These could potentially be true.
4. However, it is highly unlikely that every possible unprovable theory is true.
5. There are three options: None are true, some are true or all are true
6. Assumptions must be consistent to be logical.
7. Therefore there are two logical states of assumption - 'all true' or 'all false'
8a. Assuming all are true.
i. n true out of infinity where n is finite = an average of (n/∞) correct, or to evaluate that, 0. Any finite number divided by infinity is zero.
ii. 0 true out of infinity = an average of (0/∞) correct = 0
iii. ∞ true out of infinity = an average of (∞/∞) correct = 1.
8b. Assuming all are false.
i. n true out of infinity where n is finite = an average of (∞-n)/∞ correct, or to evaluate, ∞-n=∞ and (∞/∞) = 1 (remember that any 'true unprovable' is counted as a wrong answer, they're assumed false)
ii. 0 true out of infinity =  an average of (∞/∞) correct = 1
III. infinity true out of infinity = an average of (∞-∞/∞) correct = (0/∞) = 0
9. Thus, even ignoring the fact that infinite true unprovables is highly unlikely, to say the least, assuming all are false is right more of the time.

I just made that up on the fly, mind you, so it's probably horribly flawed.



My actual philosophy when it comes to this sort of matter, however, is that if you can't prove it one way or t'other it probably doesn't matter. I mean, assume 'I don't care' all the time and you're guaranteed to be right.
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Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar

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Re: Is there an after life?
« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2009, 09:11:45 pm »
Quote from: "Draaaglom"
Quote from: "Digby Chicken-Caesar"
Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

That's all I'll say, because this is entirely based upon opinion. That goes both ways.
As I *just said*, it is illogical to assume things exist without evidence.

But how can you possibly try and apply mathematics to human psychology? It's not illogical at all, otherwise you may as well say instinct is. I'm not saying an afterlife is real or not because there is no possible way of proving or disproving it's existence, but saying it's illogical through lack of evidence is hypocrisy. There's no way to prove or disprove the existence of a God, but it's not illogical to have hope in the existence of one. Again, returning to Pascal's Wager.
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Chancellor of BBH Open University


twaters

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Re: Is there an after life?
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2009, 12:04:20 pm »
But you all seem to be missing the point.... No we cannot prove or disprove the existence of God absolutely, but that is not the standard of proof we use when speak about fact. We cannot absolutely prove our existence, but i think most people would regard it as fact. And therefore we can naturally bring in evidence to discern whether or not God exists, using the common sense standard of proof.

Plus, i don't think it makes more sense to disbelieve than to believe. If you have no evidence, then be undecided and open-minded. I don't see how it is more logical to disbelieve than not know - you are far, far more likely to be wrong that way.

Also, Pascal's wager is a fairly weak argument, and i don't think it's really taken seriously. At best, it's a very weak suggestion that theism is a better 'bet' than atheism. But nothing more.

Ip Lockard

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Re: Is there an after life?
« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2009, 12:26:04 pm »
Quote from: "twaters"
Plus, i don't think it makes more sense to disbelieve than to believe. If you have no evidence, then be undecided and open-minded. I don't see how it is more logical to disbelieve than not know - you are far, far more likely to be wrong that way.

Open-Minded in that if anything ever happened that might hint towards the existence of a higher power, I might believe one existed?  :roll:
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twaters

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Re: Is there an after life?
« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2009, 12:40:31 pm »
Quote from: "Ip Lockard"
Open-Minded in that if anything ever happened that might hint towards the existence of a higher power, I might believe one existed?  :roll:

Open-minded:

a) That things that have previously happened that might 'hint' towards the existence of a higher power.
b) That things that currently happen might 'hint' towards the existence of a higher power and
c) That there is a possibility that future things might 'hint' towards the existence of a higher power.

YouHaveRecieved

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Re: Is there an after life?
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2009, 09:11:00 pm »
Whilst you all say that, why couldn't the Matrix be true? We will never know. Maybe we are clones and when we die and decompose our essential organs are given to aliens.  :geek:

Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar

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Re: Is there an after life?
« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2009, 09:28:56 pm »
Quote from: "YouHaveRecieved"
Whilst you all say that, why couldn't the Matrix be true? We will never know. Maybe we are clones and when we die and decompose our essential organs are given to aliens.  :geek:

Well, it's a theory.

It was invented by film culture, which a LOT of other completely fictitious rubbish has been, but it's a theory.
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Will Salmon

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Re: Is there an after life?
« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2009, 09:29:54 pm »
Quote from: "Digby Chicken-Caesar"
Quote from: "YouHaveRecieved"
Whilst you all say that, why couldn't the Matrix be true? We will never know. Maybe we are clones and when we die and decompose our essential organs are given to aliens.  :geek:

Well, it's a theory.

It was invented by film culture, which a LOT of other completely fictitious rubbish has been, but it's a theory.

Like U-571...
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SKQ62

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Re: Is there an after life?
« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2009, 10:06:10 pm »
Quote from: "Digby Chicken-Caesar"
Quote from: "YouHaveRecieved"
Whilst you all say that, why couldn't the Matrix be true? We will never know. Maybe we are clones and when we die and decompose our essential organs are given to aliens.  :geek:

Well, it's a theory.

It was invented by film culture, which a LOT of other completely fictitious rubbish has been, but it's a theory.

Actually a lot of the Matrix was taken from bona fide philosophical arguments, especially by Baudrillard, if any of you are into that kind of thing. Plus it's a very complex version that cave and shadow analogy. Can anyone remember what I'm talking about? The Socrates theory I think? In a nutshell, who's the say the world and what exists within it extends only to what we can perceive with our own eyes?


p.s. do NOT get me started on U571!!

Chandler Bing

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Re: Is there an after life?
« Reply #56 on: January 09, 2009, 10:04:30 pm »
finally a post i can get stuck into
rite (clears throat)

reasons for believing;
- near-death experiences - people who have nearly died talk of seeing a cright light or meeting jesus etc. some also say they floated out of the hospita, one particular case a woman said that she had floated up out of the hospital and that there was a trainer on the roof, when they checked there was  :? .
- the fact jesus returned from the dead - yer well that kind of explains it self, if he came back he must have gone somewhere. if he even existed.

reasons for not believing ;
- why don't dad people contact the living - if you died leaving behind the someone you loved wouldn't u try to come back or tell them that your okay and you'll see them when u die.
- if there is an after life why do people fear death - i wouldn't if i knew i'd just either meet an bloke with light shining from him on a little red bloke wi horns  :evil:  either way i won't care atleast i'm alive
- why do near-death experiences vary so much - they are nearly all different some people see a light, some pearly gates, some the devil, some jesus, some elijah, some budda n other religious figure i mean for pete's sake some see elvis. HINT HINT there just the mind panicking and you imagine what you think death is like.
- also why do christian still fear death they are the ones who believe in God n and after life so they shouldn't reali care yet they do.

therefore i don't believe in an after life when u die u die end of.  :D

Dodgy Dude

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Re: Is there an after life?
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2009, 03:31:15 pm »
The guy above me wrote someting about if jesus even existed.
The man jesus definetley did exist, and he was known to perform "miracles", but these could have been coincidence, he could  have been an elaborate con man trying to make money.

The debate is was he really the son of god, or was he a good actor who had a bit of luck?
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils

He's had it in for me ever since I accidentally ran over his dog. Actually, replace "accidentally" with "repeatedly," and replace "dog" with "son."

Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar

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Re: Is there an after life?
« Reply #58 on: January 10, 2009, 03:34:27 pm »
Quote from: "Dodgy Dude"
The man jesus definetley did exist, and he was known to perform "miracles",

Where is the proof?

I don't doubt the fact that a man named Jesus existed, but the idea that he was around at that time and being a travelling miracle-worker seems far-fetched to me.

Don't forget what the time the Bible was written in was like. Politics could have/has influenced it incredibly.
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Dodgy Dude

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Re: Is there an after life?
« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2009, 03:37:48 pm »
I didn't meant to say he performed miracles, he was supposed to have done, random people have said so, but if he was a con man, then these could have been in league with him.
Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils

He's had it in for me ever since I accidentally ran over his dog. Actually, replace "accidentally" with "repeatedly," and replace "dog" with "son."

 

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