Author Topic: Commie talk  (Read 1953 times)

Yellowstoner

  • Posts: 6
Commie talk
« on: August 10, 2011, 10:54:57 pm »
Quote from: "tomf60"
OMG!!!!!! Shock horror.

Another american who's been brainwashed by the 1980s Ronald Reagan media machine and think they know what communism is, what it stands for and why its wrong. A state which lets its citizenry carry lethal weapons is what's wrong.

I'm not American, thou I did used to live in US for several years. I have lived in communist country before that.

Let me tell you a little story...

My grandfather was born is poor city family in Novi Sad. He has worked hard all his life and eventually became wealthy merchant. In 41' he was conscripted in Royal Yugoslav Army that surrendered after only couple weeks of fighting. My grandfather was sent to prison camp in Germany and few months later transfered to occupied Russia. In spring of 1944 he managed to escape from prison camp. He traveled on foot back to Novi Sad, while hiding for his life. When he managed to come back 3 months later, he weighted only 48 kg... Couple of months later communists took over. Naturally, they hated rich man so they confiscated all his assets and sentenced him for collaborating with the Germans... He was sentenced to 20 years of prison, some say just because some communist commander liked his house. My grandfather committed suicided in prison. He was 47 years old. My grandmother, together with small children(5.7 and 10 year olds), had to live in single rented room for next ten years. They virtually starved.

Why is this communism? Because communist want to make everyone equally wealthy and to keep it that way. They will take anything away from you just so that you don't be richer than the average, no matter how hard you worked for it and give it to someone who hasn't worked at all.+ When everyone is equally wealthy, you don't have to work hard at all, since you'll be payed the same anyway. This might sound interesting, but without ambition people just don't work much so everyone is actually poor.
In reality, communism is poverty and oppression against people who think differently. Not much more.

Sorry for bringing it up in this subject. : /

Hungry_Eyes

  • Posts: 3391
Re: London Riots
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2011, 11:01:19 pm »
Except soviet russia was an authoritarian socialist state, and I'm a liberal socialist.


Ecosocialism or barbarism]

Bob the terrorist

  • Posts: 3719
Re: London Riots
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2011, 11:03:05 pm »
That a commander took his house for himself (as you implied) should give you a little hint as to why that's not communism. Again, I'm not a communist anyway, but to confuse it with the soviet regime just doesn't work. Besides, most communist visions are either post-scarcity or entirely voluntary.
We are convinced that freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality.[/color]

Hungry_Eyes

  • Posts: 3391
Re: London Riots
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2011, 11:09:33 pm »
Quote from: "Bob the terrorist"
That a commander took his house for himself (as you implied) should give you a little hint as to why that's not communism. Again, I'm not a communist anyway, but to confuse it with the soviet regime just doesn't work. Besides, most communist visions are either post-scarcity or entirely voluntary.

It sort of was, although I admit their was a huge brainwashing conducted by western media. I see communism, and socialism for that matter as a tale of two sides; authoritarian or liberal, and I'd say soviet russia was easily on the authoritarian side of things.


Ecosocialism or barbarism]

Bob the terrorist

  • Posts: 3719
Re: London Riots
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2011, 11:13:09 pm »
Quote from: "tomf60"
Quote from: "Bob the terrorist"
That a commander took his house for himself (as you implied) should give you a little hint as to why that's not communism. Again, I'm not a communist anyway, but to confuse it with the soviet regime just doesn't work. Besides, most communist visions are either post-scarcity or entirely voluntary.

It sort of was, although I admit their was a huge brainwashing conducted by western media. I see communism, and socialism for that matter as a tale of two sides; authoritarian or liberal, and I'd say soviet russia was easily on the authoritarian side of things.
It had hierarchies and material privilege. That alone means it can't be ok dan I'll stop.
We are convinced that freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality.[/color]

Hungry_Eyes

  • Posts: 3391
Re: London Riots
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2011, 11:14:05 pm »
hehe


Ecosocialism or barbarism]

Tomaz

  • Posts: 8557
Re: London Riots
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2011, 11:16:16 pm »
Why won't johnobrow understand the post-scarcity thing? It's blatantly obvious that while limited resources exist, communism won't, even if it officially does.

Yellowstoner

  • Posts: 6
Re: London Riots
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2011, 11:20:43 pm »
Quote from: "Bob the terrorist"
That a commander took his house for himself (as you implied) should give you a little hint as to why that's not communism. Again, I'm not a communist anyway, but to confuse it with the soviet regime just doesn't work. Besides, most communist visions are either post-scarcity or entirely voluntary.

Well, people in power will always take what they want, it's human nature.
I've only said it's what communism looks like in reality. You may have read some books about communism but it's only bunch of ideas that don't actually work in reality.

Btw, current riots will stop as soon as your liberal government shows some balls and reminds immigrant communities who's still in charge.

Hungry_Eyes

  • Posts: 3391
Re: Commie talk
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2011, 11:45:49 pm »
And you think capitalism works in reality?

I think the current riots demonstrate the inherent weakness with capitalism.

also dan - stop deleting my nan posts :(


Ecosocialism or barbarism]

Draaglom

  • Posts: 2240
Re: London Riots
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2011, 02:49:06 am »
Quote from: "Tomaz"
Why won't johnobrow understand the post-scarcity thing? It's blatantly obvious that while limited resources exist, communism won't, even if it officially does.
Obviously all these grand statements require some pretty thorough definitions of "communism" to be meaningful, but I see it the other way round entirely. Lack of resource constraints are sufficient but not necessary for communism. That is to say, in a post scarcity world the benefits of running an elitist society should evaporate - being at the top of the food chain would no longer make you significantly more materially wealthy, while still retaining the disadvantage of isolating you from everyone else. And it would also become more difficult to maintain your elite status because the people who want to dethrone you have greater tools at their disposal. But I'm digressing, because that's the part you agree on.

I don't think post-scarcity is necessary for communism because... partly because post scarcity is never going to happen and I want to look on the bright side, but mostly because I view communism a bit more broadly. The conditions I can think of, that would need to be met before I would call something communism, look quite "achievable" to me. Things like the elimination of the state, direct ownership of the means of production, political and economic equality - reaching an arbitrarily high enough threshold in these areas (and maybe more that haven't sprung to mind) would be sufficient to be called "communism" in my book, and I see no reason that we need to invoke the post-scarcity fairy to achieve them. With ubiquitous cheap fast reliable uneavesdroppable* communications available, the "state" is becoming less relevant - and by my understanding it is the primary architect of the other two problems.


... yes, I am procrastinating from something this evening, why do you ask? :P

*properly used public key encryption
"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be."
[size=200][/size]

Tomaz

  • Posts: 8557
Re: Commie talk
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2011, 12:37:12 pm »
So everyone in this area or nation has to subscribe to this ideal. Otherwise, one particular group of owners of their own means of production can implement MARKET FORCES and becomes wealthy? There is no state to prevent them.

johnobrow

  • Posts: 13707
Re: Commie talk
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2011, 03:10:12 pm »
Quote from: "Yellowstoner"
Quote from: "tomf60"
OMG!!!!!! Shock horror.

Another american who's been brainwashed by the 1980s Ronald Reagan media machine and think they know what communism is, what it stands for and why its wrong. A state which lets its citizenry carry lethal weapons is what's wrong.

I'm not American, thou I did used to live in US for several years. I have lived in communist country before that.

Let me tell you a little story...

My grandfather was born is poor city family in Novi Sad. He has worked hard all his life and eventually became wealthy merchant. In 41' he was conscripted in Royal Yugoslav Army that surrendered after only couple weeks of fighting. My grandfather was sent to prison camp in Germany and few months later transfered to occupied Russia. In spring of 1944 he managed to escape from prison camp. He traveled on foot back to Novi Sad, while hiding for his life. When he managed to come back 3 months later, he weighted only 48 kg... Couple of months later communists took over. Naturally, they hated rich man so they confiscated all his assets and sentenced him for collaborating with the Germans... He was sentenced to 20 years of prison, some say just because some communist commander liked his house. My grandfather committed suicided in prison. He was 47 years old. My grandmother, together with small children(5.7 and 10 year olds), had to live in single rented room for next ten years. They virtually starved.

Why is this communism? Because communist want to make everyone equally wealthy and to keep it that way. They will take anything away from you just so that you don't be richer than the average, no matter how hard you worked for it and give it to someone who hasn't worked at all.+ When everyone is equally wealthy, you don't have to work hard at all, since you'll be payed the same anyway. This might sound interesting, but without ambition people just don't work much so everyone is actually poor.
In reality, communism is poverty and oppression against people who think differently. Not much more.

Sorry for bringing it up in this subject. : /

In the words of Karl Marx; "Nein, nein, das ist nicht der kommunismus!" I am a communist (note lower case "c" that differentiates from upper case "C" Communism) which means I am opposed to the state - any state - be it "socialist" or "soviet" or whatever. Communism isn't a sate of affairs, it's a form of social relations. Obviously communism cannot exist if the state exists since the state represents the seperation of people from society, from community. It is the antithesis of communism. If I had lived under Tito or Stalin or any other so-called Socialist or Communist government I would have struggled against them just like I struggle against this government, against the capitalist state.
EREP IS DEAD LABOUR AND DEAD TIME - LIFE IS ELSEWHERE
-------->DESTROY THAT WHICH DESTROYS YOU<--------

Tomaz

  • Posts: 8557
Re: Commie talk
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2011, 03:12:58 pm »
What we need is to regress to a tribal situation!









...........

johnobrow

  • Posts: 13707
Re: Commie talk
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2011, 03:36:32 pm »
You're a very strange person, Tom.
EREP IS DEAD LABOUR AND DEAD TIME - LIFE IS ELSEWHERE
-------->DESTROY THAT WHICH DESTROYS YOU<--------

Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar

  • Global Moderator
  • Posts: 13995
Re: Commie talk
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2011, 03:52:11 pm »
Quote from: "johnobrow"
You're a very strange person, Tom.

HRH Pope Digby V, Prince of Hanover, KC, KG, KP, GBE, OGS, FRSL, BGD, PhD
Chancellor of BBH Open University


Tomaz

  • Posts: 8557
Re: Commie talk
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2011, 03:55:14 pm »
But that is what you are advocating. Tribalism.

shadow

  • Woldean Court
  • Posts: 9455
Re: Commie talk
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2011, 09:04:00 am »
Quote from: "Tomaz"
But that is what you are advocating. Tribalism.

^

I agree, but I don't think Johno himself has discovered that yet

Also Johno, if you lived under Tito or Stalin, you would have probably kept your mouth shut or would haven ended up in some anonymous grave.

Be glad you live in a capitalist state, at least you have the right to be against it and complain.
Politics: eUK president; congressman (x7), Vice-president (x4); HoL member; BE congres
party politics: UKRP party founder; UKRP party president
minister apps: Mi-6 founder, MoD; MoFa
military: para; US tank; ATLANTIS SG; AIS founder

John Forseti

  • Posts: 5634
Re: Commie talk
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2011, 09:07:44 am »
Quote from: "shadow"
Quote from: "Tomaz"
But that is what you are advocating. Tribalism.

^

I agree, but I don't think Johno himself has discovered that yet

Also Johno, if you lived under Tito or Stalin, you would have probably kept your mouth shut or would haven ended up in some anonymous grave.

Be glad you live in a [s:336nhydi]capitalist[/s:336nhydi]semi-liberal semi-democratic state, at least you have the right to be against it and complain.

Pinochet's regime in chilie was as a brutal a regime as any other dictatorship and he was quite the capitalist.

Hungry_Eyes

  • Posts: 3391
Re: Commie talk
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2011, 10:36:05 am »
So are the Arab nations, including UAE, and their regimes are pretty brutal in restricting freedoms: a woman can't leave the house without a man, and has to cover all but her eyes.


Ecosocialism or barbarism]

Iain Keers

  • Party - TUP
  • Posts: 12057
Re: Commie talk
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2011, 02:23:55 pm »
Every economic system from pre-historic times has been a form of rationing economic wealth. Capitalism rations it based on the demand on your skills (in theory) and on the shifting market demand for your particular company. The communism we saw in Russia was more like a caste system, with members of the ruling party forming an upper caste with more privileges and everyone else getting trodden on. Scapegoating the middle class is a common tactic in violent regimes to distract attention away from the emerging ruling class. However saying that, your grandfather was clearly wealthy by the standards of the country- although what happened to him is totally wrong, his family had to live like the majority of yugoslavians after he was imprisoned. The reason why such evil regimes get into power is because of the huge disparity of wealth between the poor people starving in one bedroom flats and the rich people living in nice big houses. It's why the Jews were such handy targets across Europe.

By the way, capitalism isn't a governmental form, it's an economic model where capital is accumulated by a small unelected minority. It's such a blanket term it can be applied to dozens of different models. For example, in the arab countries there isn't a great deal of "capitalism" in the free market, everyone has an 'equal' chance etc situation we have here. In many countries foreign born people have no rights, business is run by state-approved monopolies, trade is controlled by the royal family and so on. Corruption is so extreme it chokes business. The only real exception- Lebanon- went down the toilet in the late 80s. Anyway my point is that although you can argue that Soviet Union wasn't communism (justifiably), most capitalists would also argue that the corruption, cronyism and violence in the countries you mentioned aren't a helpful part of capitalism either, and that regulation to ensure a free and fair market is the backbone of capitalism. Most of the companies criticised by lefties for poor/unethical business practice (Coca Cola, Nestle etc now, UFC and so on in the past) are also criticised by the right. When you see in the news microsoft or whatever being challenged by the government over various things, it sure isn't the left which has prompted that move.
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

 

With Quick-Reply you can write a post when viewing a topic without loading a new page. You can still use bulletin board code and smileys as you would in a normal post.

Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.

Name: Email:
Verification:
Type the letters shown in the picture
Listen to the letters / Request another image
Type the letters shown in the picture:
What precious metal is a currency in erepublik?:
How do you spell 'Frerk'?:
What social MMO is this forum linked to?: