Author Topic: General PD Discussion Metathread  (Read 5935 times)

Iain Keers

  • Party - TUP
  • Posts: 12057
General PD Discussion Metathread
« on: December 30, 2012, 01:08:38 pm »
viewtopic.php?f=637&t=84864

Goku has just decided to make up his own citizenship procedure, without consulting any of the top 5 parties, congress or anyone. He's adding his own judges based on who he decides, and ignoring the actual legislation, despite the vote on scrapping it not even happening yet.


Ergo I pose to you the question- what legitimacy does Goku have here? He's not following the congress approved laws, he's got no actual power over congress ingame, so why should anyone take any notice of him?

As a wider point, Dan and Talon were recently removed by Kumnaa to try and "heal the community divide", yet Goku is widely despised by the half of the country that uses the forums. As a MoLA, having half of congress despise you isn't ideal. Perhaps the government could make a reconciliation gesture and get rid of such a divisive figure.
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

Joffrey Baratheon

  • PCP Diehard
  • RP
  • Posts: 2303
  • Furtim Vigilans
Re: Ignoring Goku
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2012, 01:19:08 pm »
As far as I can tell this isn't a change in how Citizenship is decided but instead just moving the decision of the Congress Committee and Vouches to a single place for all citizenship requests to make it easier for Congress members to check.

As for legitimacy I believe he has as much as any of the former citizenship 'tsars' who ran purely based on CP backing. (Ie. Not the right kind of legitimacy in my eyes granted but then again you can't just pick and choose when it's ok and when it's not based purely on who is in power)

So long as the final legitimacy of someone gaining CS is the decision of the committee I see no issue with it.


~Esse Quam Videri~

Metapod

  • Lord of The Dance
  • Political - Member of Parliament
  • Posts: 2241
Re: Ignoring Goku
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2012, 01:19:53 pm »
I do agree that Goku should of consulted us firstly, especially since citizenship is a pretty relevant discussion at the moment. And technically since he wants to get rid of legislation, you could in theory just ignore it.

Secondly though, you cannot just decide to remove him as MoLA just because you and a bunch of your mates don't like him. Yes he's made mistakes (lots lol) in the past, but the fact is he has been chosen by the democratically elected CP and you cannot and should not force him into making decisions. You're not in power. The fact of the matter there is no real reason to remove him either, he has done a p good job (imo), and surely that is why people should get government jobs - because they're good at it, not because they're popular.


I'M A RAINBOW CITIZEN.

N W G

  • President
  • Posts: 650
Re: Ignoring Goku
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2012, 01:21:22 pm »
i though MOLA job was to aid with legislation and also to aid congress do there job.

Hes not there to make up his own legislation or to work without there consent
Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:30:39 pm
Quote from: "Minecrafting Instead"

Goku posting on these forums again is not on the table (nor will it ever be)

Malkaiser

  • Posts: 7572
Re: Ignoring Goku
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2012, 01:42:24 pm »
The new citizenship system has been in place for 4 days, I am now at work integrating the forums into the new systems in an attempt to reconcile in game and forum focused players. The legislation states that there will be a citizenship committee, this system includes that and also has information from the government, random concerned citizens with information and forums. It's legislation plus extras.

The legislation system has ceased functioning if you look at the data http://www.erepublik.com/en/article/leg ... 81479/1/20 but I'm still trying to follow it and edits I'm working on now with proposals should be within the old laws. Proposals are up 700% from November under the new system which has only been up 3 days. It's still a work in progress but I think that it has promise.

My data as of a couple of days ago is that 37.5% of Congress use the forums and today politial parties which promote the forums have 46% of politically active players. 29% of online players are logged into the forums right now at the time of me writing this. This means that decisions taken on the forums are not made by the majority of eUK players or Congressmen. The hope is that with the peace conference later and the MoLA using both in game and forum methods of communication, we can have 100% of the players invovled no matter where they choose to communicate. This can only be good for forum useage.

I am elected via BigAnt so you only have a week to wait until you can vote me out if you think that I am doing a bad job.


EDIT: Some tweaks added to make proposals within the old laws: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=84724
We will be accepting forum proposals and sponsors :)

Iain Keers

  • Party - TUP
  • Posts: 12057
Re: Ignoring Goku
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2012, 01:47:00 pm »
You just randomly ignored half the country, so why shouldn't they just randomly ignore you? I'd argue they've got no responsibility to listen to anything you say.

ACroc, the difference is that the previous CS positions were supported by forum legislation passed by congress- so the majority of congress supported the system. They could change or remove it at any time. This is based purely on the whim of Goku, and since his system wasn't part of BA's manifesto it doesn't even have a popular mandate.

Since as Goku said lots when he wasn't in charge, "cs is the job of congress", congress should decide what system we use, not him. In fact, congress should be selecting the MoLA itself. If you don't have a system which all of congress signs up to, you cannot possibly have any sort of unified policy.

I'd argue any system with Goku at the head of it will naturally cause a split in the community, thus removing him would be a good first step to reconciliation.
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

Darkmantle

  • Archivists
  • Posts: 8102
  • Bot Guy
Re: Ignoring Goku
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2012, 01:47:46 pm »
The legislation system has not ceased functioning until you follow the rules YOU wrote to repeal it. As I've said about a hundred times now.

Therefore, Iain can propose whatever he wants.

Malkaiser

  • Posts: 7572
Re: Ignoring Goku
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2012, 02:11:54 pm »
If you would like to give specific examples of legislation being broken, I will either explain how it is being followed, why it isn't being followed or what I will change to make it within the old laws. I don't want to post much so I'll probally come back in a few hours time or tomorrow and deal with the whole list.

To take Citizenship as an example:
CPA
Quote
3 - Citizenship a) All citizenship requests must be authorised before an applicant is accepted in game.

b) Requests can be authorised by the Country President or by using normal proposal procedure.

LA
Quote
2 - Proxies
a. The Country President may appoint one or more proxies to manage discussion, citizenship, proposals and votes as described by the Statute Book.
What is happening is that the Country President, via his proxy (me) is making additional proxies (nebojsa, wayne etc) to approve Citizenship Requests on the spreadsheet.

The Citizenship Committe is still operating under Nebojsa's leadership (I think he is the chair?) so that is who you want to contact if you want to elect new people there.
EDIT: I transfered the MoLA powers over the committee to Nebojsa who has been doing a fantastic job.

Iain Keers

  • Party - TUP
  • Posts: 12057
Re: Ignoring Goku
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2012, 02:17:09 pm »
The citizenship committee legislation SHOULD have replaced the relevant parts of other legislation when it was implemented. Unfortunately whichever GENTLEMAN was MoLA at the time cannot into basic shit and forgot to do it. We've had this debate before, but obviously you were banned, so unless you had one of your multis active at the time you probably missed it.
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

Thedark ace

  • Party - UKRP
  • Posts: 3308
Re: Ignoring Goku
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2012, 02:31:12 pm »
Needs more democracy, imo

Nebojsa

  • Posts: 1758
Re: Ignoring Goku
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2012, 02:32:26 pm »
Being a Head of CS committee is not a title(for me). Its a responsability of being someone who checks cs apps and let people into country which is huge responsability so Goku you cant tell its just a title..

Anyway while you are talking about CS committee members its a safer way to get more cs committee members being involved like we did on forums last month before you where unbanned from same forum(this one) and share responsability on few more people. I dont care really if somebody blames me for letting some people in even if they are enemy or our allias. I know how to do my job proprely and not let enemy into our country BUT, all i want is to let people from other parties(like we did last month) to think with their head and be involved into cs committee. I dont want to be selfish bitch and do job all alone and dont let people from other parties to be involved in.

EDIT: And yes, i support what Iain Keers told "get back legislation on its place like it was last month!"

Anonymous

  • Guest
Re: Ignoring Goku
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2012, 02:55:53 pm »
Quote from: "various"
Goku has just decided to make up his own citizenship procedure, without consulting any of the top 5 parties, congress or anyone.

He's aware of NE thought, UKPP policy and 1V's intent on CS and he has access to the last debates on CS, the voting tallies and reems of other source material of people spelling out thier views.

Quote
Ergo I pose to you the question- what legitimacy does Goku have here? He's not following the congress approved laws, he's got no actual power over congress ingame, so why should anyone take any notice of him?

I refer you to the earlier mini-debate we had on this. He only has legitimacy if their is a desire by both 'sides' to commune and debate in order to arrive and a mutually agreeable, consensual set of decisons regarding national policy.

As pointed out he does have no in-game power other then trying to provide a network for that to happen as a proxy for the National Leader/CP and 'you' and 'them' can choose to ignore him if you feel more can be accomplished within your own network, as exampled here;

http://www.erepublik.com/en/main/law/Un ... dom/121461

Quote
half of the country that uses the forums
41.5% of votes went to 'forum based' parties in Congress.
The forums ARE NOT activly used by +298 eUKers on any given day, week, month.
There's not even close to 50% of ingame congress using these boards.

The 'Forum users' are a community that along with MU's, Parties, IRC users, One clickers and casual users constitute what makes up the nation. They are not the heart and soul of it anymore then 7th Cavalry are (tho just as active maybe?) just another group with their own ways, systems and in-jokes.

Quote
As a MoLA, having half of congress despise you isn't ideal.....

41.5% at a push and thats if we include ESO which according to Jamesw we should not so it's 28.5% / quarter.

Quote
The legislation system has not ceased functioning until you follow the rules YOU wrote to repeal it.....

On a national level...........its already dead when over half of congress (check the math) ignore it/are unaware of it/laugh at it. You've got 3 of the top 5 consisting of parties that operate independently of the forums since their inception (in the case of NE and 1V) or since events that occured over a year ago (UKPP) and as such they have developed thier own 'legislation/set of rules' which they follow.

TUKRP (and ESO) are likewise free to organise in a manner they find comfortable and efficient and no one player or party can or should take that away from you.

Even if they do - You guys are as free to ignore that ruling as much as others have ignored yours!

Sir Humphrey Appleby

  • Permanent Speaker
  • Party - UKRP
  • Posts: 7289
  • Sodomy non sapiens
Re: Ignoring Goku
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2012, 03:25:41 pm »
I still don't understand where these figures come from. If they are based on party membership then you yourself are living evidence against it (as are a number of people posting/read from supposedly anti-forum parties)

It has always been the trend that only the few actives, usually around 1-2% of the UK population end up on here (and less so IRC). That does not discount it's value or means of use (especially given the limitations of game mechanics)
<Guitah> not arguing with a Brit about tea is tha sensible thing to do :)
<Appleby> it is common knowledge it is pointless arguing with an addict :p
<Appleby> thus it is pointless arguing about tea with brits



Joffrey Baratheon

  • PCP Diehard
  • RP
  • Posts: 2303
  • Furtim Vigilans
Re: Ignoring Goku
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2012, 04:01:41 pm »
I think everyone is clearly missing the point here.

Making a proposal to legislate 'Ignoring' someone is absolutely ridiculous.

End of.


~Esse Quam Videri~

Iain Keers

  • Party - TUP
  • Posts: 12057
Re: Ignoring Goku
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2012, 04:03:39 pm »
I wasn't proposing legislating it. I was just saying he is choosing to ignore all our views, so why on earth should we follow any procedures he randomly invents? There's no obligation for us to do so, ergo why should we?
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

Sir Humphrey Appleby

  • Permanent Speaker
  • Party - UKRP
  • Posts: 7289
  • Sodomy non sapiens
Re: Ignoring Goku
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2012, 04:06:48 pm »
I think his system works insofar as you have the option to ignore it (which is probably his objective, really)
<Guitah> not arguing with a Brit about tea is tha sensible thing to do :)
<Appleby> it is common knowledge it is pointless arguing with an addict :p
<Appleby> thus it is pointless arguing about tea with brits



Malkaiser

  • Posts: 7572
Re: Ignoring Goku
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2012, 04:07:52 pm »
Why not bring specific proposals to congress, either through the goodledoc http://tinyurl.com/UKGov-Petition (http://tinyurl.com/UKGov-Petition-Results) or in Public Discussion on specific things you are not happy with? 48 hours discussion, 10 sponsors and congress vote as usual.

Iain Keers

  • Party - TUP
  • Posts: 12057
Re: Ignoring Goku
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2012, 04:21:44 pm »
I did, and it passed, and now you're suggesting we dismiss it all based on your own arrogant attitude towards the work of others to put in place your own half-baked proposal that nobody has voted on
"Come to me, all who labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." ~ Mt 11:28

Anonymous

  • Guest
Re: Ignoring Goku
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2012, 04:25:01 pm »
Quote from: "Iain Keers"
I wasn't proposing legislating it. I was just saying he is choosing to ignore all our views, so why on earth should we follow any procedures he randomly invents? There's no obligation for us to do so, ergo why should we?


You need not.

We've ignored procedures coming out of here for the longest time and you are just as free to do so.

Thomas765

  • Party - UKRP
  • Posts: 8158
Re: Ignoring Goku
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2012, 04:28:11 pm »
The topic just seems petty - just my personal opinion. I think congressmen should be able to choose what system they wish to follow though, as parties have done recently. If they  agree to one together then that's all the better ^^

 

With Quick-Reply you can write a post when viewing a topic without loading a new page. You can still use bulletin board code and smileys as you would in a normal post.

Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.

Name: Email:
Verification:
Type the letters shown in the picture
Listen to the letters / Request another image
Type the letters shown in the picture:
What precious metal is a currency in erepublik?:
How do you spell 'Frerk'?:
What social MMO is this forum linked to?: