The USA in WW2

[Blandman]

I think generally, Andalas, that we would agree on a great deal of things. There are only actually a few points in each of our posts. It just seems that we can manage to create a lot out of them. Which I like. I will make a much more thorough reply, but not right now.

I will say though that I do not praise Chamberlain. I just kind of feel that he gets an awful lot more stick than he perhaps deserves.

Expect a better and bigger post when I am less tired. Probably tomorrow then.

Gentlemen (and ladies), we have a real debate on our hands it seems. Settle in, this could be a long one.

[Goku Jones]

Adolf Hitler and the Nazis caused WW2, don't be silly.
You can't, with our 21st century hindsight, say that random people/nations/events didn't so enough stop it and therefore caused it.
Everyone bent over backwards to please Hitler and he still invaded everywhere, the guy was bloodthirsty and evil and nothing could have stopped him.

We must analyse history so we do not make the same mistakes in the future. Hindsight is the one place where you can scrutinise inaction.

I'm not disagreeing with this, but to blame random things for starting the war is rediculous.
Many threads lead to Hitler's rise to power, you can't trace one back and say "Oh USA started/caused WW2". If you do that you can come to all kinds of crazy conclusions, the Jews started WW2 for being so damned sucsessful, persistent and community spirited for example.

The guy was hellbent on war, and everyone else was hellbent on not having one. That is about it for blame.

If you take away Hitler the radical communists would have won the German election and there would have been war anyway.

No, just no. The whole thing was a cult around Hitler's personality. Without him history would have taken a very different route - even with Nazi's in power (which I doubt).

[Andalas]

The Jews started WW2.

Just thought I would take your words out of proportion .

To blame things is not ridiculous. I have studied tediously and earned the right to formulate my conclusion. I have provided my opinion and my reasons for that conclusion. It doesn't mean that the USA was completely responsible for the war and my opinion is highly debatable. However, you cannot unfoundedly dismiss my argument as random and ridiculous. That's very close-minded.

No, just no. The whole thing was a cult around Hitler's personality.

Again, very dismissive and without support. Both Blandman and I have provided essays for our arguments, yet you provide a mere sentence and expect me to dismiss a very popular view.
I can tell you that there where many demagogic figures in Germany at that time, thus the amount of putsches.
I have already mentioned the communist party (who were the second largest party in Germany after the NSDAP) who had supporters just as violent as the brown shirts. With the world view of communism (despite the 'Uncle Joe' facade) being negative (Churchill was preaching the evils of communism long before the iron curtain speech), and the aggressive growth of Russia, war would have been a certainty (there were no nuclear bombs to prevent it (like the cold war)).
Also, Hitler's cult was weak at best. His putsch failed dismally, all the other parties hated (but feared) him, his brown-shirts where literally overtaking cities just to retain their support. As soon as he reached power he was forced to kill almost every rival (most notably Ernst Rohm, who was literally within days of replacing Hitler) in his party (night of long knives), which was followed by the replacement of the brown-shirts (who were inspired by Mussolini's black shirts).
Nearly all the assassination attempts on Hitler's life where supported by the Germans.
Hitler was abandoned in his bunker at the end of the war, because of his unpopularity amongst peers. Not to mention that the Germans where truly fighting for the 'father-land' and, in some part, to repay the betrayal of WWI (admittedly a favourite fall back of Hitler), not for Hitler.

You need merely look at the amount of German generals who were offered the title fuehrer during the war to see who could have replaced Hitler. I will also say that Hitler was not the only dictator in the world at that time. Manchuria had been invaded, Spain where victim to a civil war (they love their civil wars) and Russia was still sore from the allied invasion after the Great War. If there is one thing that all historians agree on about this time, it is that there was going to be a war, which I have already attributed to the failures of the League of Nations (which I have attributed to the USA).

The cult of personality was Russian. Lenin and Stalin where Gods over there. Stalin was signing thousands of death warrants and children still wanted him to be there father. He got all his underlings drunk and made them dance for him every night, yet they never rebelled. Stalin threw waves of bodies at Stalingrad ("You see, Killbots have a preset kill limit. Knowing their weakness, I sent wave after wave of my own men at them, until they reached their limit and shut down.") and was hailed as a hero.

Before you say it (because I have a feeling you will)- I do not disregard Hitler and his obvious ingenuity, but war was inevitable.

[KaisKais]

I haven't read through all of this, but my view is that the war could have been won against Germany (dunno about Japan) without American intervention. American loaning and supplying would still be needed, but that's a different question. In Europe, by the time the Americans fought the best Axis forces (as opposed to Vichy French and Rommel's well organised but woefully unsupplied Afrika Korps), the Germans were losing on the Eastern Front anyway. The Russians only took as long as they did because Stalin had all the best officers killed in his purge. D-Day was just the final stab in the German coffin that removed any chance of victory.

I believe the European War was won by the Russians, not the Americans or British. Around 4.5 million Germans died on the Eastern Front compared to about 2.5 million everywhere else.

Goku, Hitler didn't want war in 1939. If you contrast German people's emotions at the outbreak of war in 1914 and then 1939, you'll find 1939 is much less happily recieved. Hitler didn't want a war until around 1942-3, and then only against the Russians. He admired Britain and France. He was trying to see how much he could get away with. By the Munich Conference, if Hitler had not won the Sudetenland, the war would have taken a pretty similar path. The point where the war could have been stopped is if the French Army had marched into the Rhineland in 1936. Even Hitler admitted Germany would have stood no chance. I think America, or more acuurately the Republicans are due to blame for the War. Wilson made up the League of Nations, and then the Republicans refused it. Three Republican Presidents then went about blowing up a financial bubble that eventually burst, causing the Nazis to take power, the Japanese army to take power.

[Goku Jones]

I think that you guys know an awful lot but understand very little when drawing your conclusions.
"Can't see the wood for trees" comes to mind.

I like how in your worlds, Hitler was an unpopular figure Jack the Ripper figure, solo stalking the streets on the night of long knives to take out all of his rivals.

[KaisKais]

I think that you guys know an awful lot but understand very little when drawing your conclusions.
"Can't see the wood for trees" comes to mind.

I like how in your worlds, Hitler was an unpopular figure Jack the Ripper figure, solo stalking the streets on the night of long knives to take out all of his rivals.

Where have I said anything like that? All I've said is Hitler didn't want a war until about 1942, and not one against the West at all.

[Goku Jones]

I think that you guys know an awful lot but understand very little when drawing your conclusions.
"Can't see the wood for trees" comes to mind.

I like how in your worlds, Hitler was an unpopular figure Jack the Ripper figure, solo stalking the streets on the night of long knives to take out all of his rivals.

Where have I said anything like that? All I've said is Hitler didn't want a war until about 1942, and not one against the West at all.

I was also adressing Andalas, hence the plural "Worlds".

I didn't think that GWB wanted to still be in Iraq at this point, but he still invaded it. That is something the Republicans DID cause.

[KaisKais]

If the Democrats held a majority in congress in 1919, the USA would have entered the League of Nations, and if James Cox had won in 1920 instead of Harding, I doubt the depression would have been as bad.

[Goku Jones]

If the Democrats held a majority in congress in 1919, the USA would have entered the League of Nations, and if James Cox had won in 1920 instead of Harding, I doubt the depression would have been as bad.

So the Democrats caused WW2 by not campaigning hard enough?

[KaisKais]

If the Democrats held a majority in congress in 1919, the USA would have entered the League of Nations, and if James Cox had won in 1920 instead of Harding, I doubt the depression would have been as bad.

So the Democrats caused WW2 by not campaigning hard enough?

No, the Americans at the time rembered how many Americans had died in WW1, and they didn't want to get involved in anything. Wilson and the Democrats believed that the League of Nations would prevent another war just as big that America would have to participate in, but only if America joined. However, Harding and the other Republicans were trying to isolate America from Europe and its wars, and not to be a policeman of the world. Many Americans leapt to the instant solution. But WW2 happened. Wilson was right.

And the 1919 congress had been elected before the USA even entered WW1, so it wasn't being planned for then.

[Alexander Mobius]

History is a series of dominoes, and you can draw in part the causes of an event back to any arbitrary point in time you like. But that doesn't mean such an inference is wrong.

[KaisKais]

This isn't meant to attempt to prove people wrong, but if you think Nazism was solely about Hitler, read Making History by Stephen Fry. Someone goes back in time and makes Hitler's father infertile, and comes back to the present to find that someone similar to Hitler, but worse, has taken over.

[Goku Jones]

This isn't meant to attempt to prove people wrong, but if you think Nazism was solely about Hitler, read Making History by Stephen Fry. Someone goes back in time and makes Hitler's father infertile, and comes back to the present to find that someone similar to Hitler, but worse, has taken over.

Stephen Fucking Fry wrote it, it must be true!

[KaisKais]

This isn't meant to attempt to prove people wrong, but if you think Nazism was solely about Hitler, read Making History by Stephen Fry. Someone goes back in time and makes Hitler's father infertile, and comes back to the present to find that someone similar to Hitler, but worse, has taken over.

Stephen Fucking Fry wrote it, it must be true!

It's not true, it's a novel. I thought people might find it entertaining and interesting. I never claimed it was true. No need to have a go.

[Andalas]

Goku, I fear that you have broken your new year’s resolution several times in this topic.

This is a discussion area. If you do not agree with someone- create an argument and debate the points. Even if you agree you can play devil's advocate (which is bloody fun and quite eye opening).

I am personally looking forwards to Blandman's next argument. I even enjoyed getting out argued (quite quickly I might say) by Alexander Mobius in one of the morality threads ("humanity is superior because it exploits everything" was brilliant by the way (I would have continued the argument, but for the most I agree with you ) the other day and I always enjoy watching Kais Kais and Twaters duke it out in the religion threads. Why can't you contribute as well? You’re here so you're no fool. Make a constructive argument (I am not judging you on your past posts, but the ones you are posting here).

[hazz]

huh. The USA causing WWII was my idea. Quit stealing it.

[Andalas]

huh. The USA causing WWII was my idea. Quit stealing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HazQlWgdzg

[Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar]

This isn't meant to attempt to prove people wrong, but if you think Nazism was solely about Hitler, read Making History by Stephen Fry. Someone goes back in time and makes Hitler's father infertile, and comes back to the present to find that someone similar to Hitler, but worse, has taken over.

Stephen Fucking Fry wrote it, it must be true!

TROLL DETECTED.

[Asher Di Immortales]

If it wasn't for Hitler, I doubt the Nazi party would have come to power. The top Nazi's were squabbling for power constantly and if there hadn't been a strong figure like Hitler, they would have torn themselves apart, killed eachother or seperated and formed a number of different factions.

[Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar]

If it wasn't for Hitler, I doubt the Nazi party would have come to power. The top Nazi's were squabbling for power constantly and if there hadn't been a strong figure like Hitler, they would have torn themselves apart, killed eachother or seperated and formed a number of different factions.

Hitler caused and wanted them to fight each-other for power. It's how he got the most efficiency out of his "government" as possible.